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Old 26th December 2010, 08:20 PM   #8011
PHEONIX is offline PHEONIX  Australia
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Hello Soundminded

May I ask what speakers you run in your audio system.
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Old 26th December 2010, 08:47 PM   #8012
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Because...?
It appears we'll never know.

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Old 26th December 2010, 09:15 PM   #8013
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Hi Joshua, thanks for your input. I know that you can tell the difference in amps and preamps, just from your responses over time.
Hi John, indeed, I can tell the audible differences between different amps, both pre-amps and power amps. You know, it is a two-edged sword, since it cost me more money than I dare to think about.

Last edited by Joshua_G; 26th December 2010 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 26th December 2010, 09:19 PM   #8014
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How many audio amplifier designs exist? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? 100,000? Why would one more matter when there are so many out there which perform just fine? I built my first audio amplifier when I was 10 years old. Not from a kit but from the schematic in the back of an RCA tube manual. I used old radio parts I found. I didn't even have the right amplifier tube. I needed a 50EH5 but used a 50C5 instead. I bought an aluminum chasis at Lafayette radio for about $3. I found a tool and die set and punched to tube holes, drilled out the screw holes for the tube sockets. I was amazed when I hooked it up to a crystal phono cartridge and a table radio speaker and it worked. I've seen, heard, built, owned countless units. My professor Paul Chirlian wrote the book. One more amplifier or preamplifier won't slove anything. The whole approach needs to be rethought.

As for "Reproduced music cannot reconstruct truly and fully live music" I consider that a temporary situation, a problem that will be eventually solved. But not yet, not by the people working on it now, at least the ones I'm aware of. They aren't up to it, it's beyond their capabilities. A discussion looking for the holy grail in one more preamplifier, one more amplifier, one more speaker system, one more wire or cartridge is proof. You can hit your head against those walls all you want, they won't fall over.
So, are you saying that all existing amplifiers are equally inadequate?
Or are some of them less inadequate than others?
What should a music lover do (aside attending live concerts) until really good amplifiers will come up?
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Old 26th December 2010, 09:20 PM   #8015
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On second thought, Steves design would have been WONDERFUL for my 1960 auto radio that was in my Renault Dauphine. Their approach was much inferior. It would appear that this approach would have been too expensive, but it would have been better.
Please remember everyone. PNP transistors made of germanium were the ONLY practical devices, besides tubes, at the time. The choke would have been OK in that situation, AND the distortion would have been lower than my SINGLE germanium power output transistor had. Those 6V6's in pp pair, with output transformer, certainly was better, and that I had installed in my previous auto.
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Old 26th December 2010, 10:00 PM   #8016
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On second thought, Steves design would have been WONDERFUL for my 1960 auto radio that was in my Renault Dauphine. Their approach was much inferior. It would appear that this approach would have been too expensive, but it would have been better.
Please remember everyone. PNP transistors made of germanium were the ONLY practical devices, besides tubes, at the time. The choke would have been OK in that situation, AND the distortion would have been lower than my SINGLE germanium power output transistor had. Those 6V6's in pp pair, with output transformer, certainly was better, and that I had installed in my previous auto.
Wake up, John. No one's talking about germanium transistors.

*sigh*

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Old 26th December 2010, 10:10 PM   #8017
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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The point being made by Soundminded (as I understand it) is that the present total approach to reproduction of acoustic music will never be realistically accurate enough to hoodwink anyone with decent experience of live music.

One outcome of this is the point being argued: That no amount of refinement of the concept and design of a pre-amp (or any other single link in the replay chain) will in any way alter the above fact.

Taken to conclusion the argument would indicate that every single stage of the audio chain from live performance to that which enters the ears is irredeemably flawed because the underlying total concept is of itself irredeemably flawed.
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Old 26th December 2010, 10:22 PM   #8018
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The design IS 50 years old, and it would have been pretty good, then. NOW?
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Old 26th December 2010, 10:26 PM   #8019
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The point being made by Soundminded (as I understand it) is that the present total approach to reproduction of acoustic music will never be realistically accurate enough to hoodwink anyone with decent experience of live music.

One outcome of this is the point being argued: That no amount of refinement of the concept and design of a pre-amp (or any other single link in the replay chain) will in any way alter the above fact.

Taken to conclusion the argument would indicate that every single stage of the audio chain from live performance to that which enters the ears is irredeemably flawed because the underlying total concept is of itself irredeemably flawed.
That's pretty much how I understand it as well.

Don't see how one can realistically re-create the soundfield from a live event with two speakers in a typical listening room.

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Old 26th December 2010, 10:42 PM   #8020
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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In my way of looking at it there may well be a different as yet undiscovered method by which this requirement could be met. But that is not the business of this site or of this thread in particular. It may well however make for a very interesting thread in the everything else section....but if some of the regular participants of, say, the Pass Pub thread get in there then it is more likely to be amusing than substantive!

In the meantime we can only take the whole matter of sound reproduction as relying on what we have already available - especially regarding stored sound sources.

Last edited by brianco; 26th December 2010 at 10:54 PM.
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