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Old 2nd August 2010, 07:54 PM   #5381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I would like to talk about 'politically correct' audio research.
Once, long ago, the AES was formed by interested engineers and audio manufacturers to give an outlet for audio engineers to present their findings at yearly meetings and even the chance, if sufficiently interesting, to be put in a journal published by the society.
Instead of JUST PhD professors having yet another place to 'publish, rather than perish', regular design engineers were encouraged to write a paper and give their findings in front of an audience of their 'peers' with questions and answers.
If this proved successful, the paper could be submitted to the 'journal' but before it would be published, it would be 'peer reviewed' by people in the audio industry. Then, with a few, usually minor modifications, it would probably appear in the JAES at some point.
To even give a paper was a reasonably daunting task. Not only did you have to write a paper and make appropriate measurements, but you had to make slides or transparencies in order to show and explain your measurements, and often, graphs.
I have done it and it is a real effort, unless this is a part of what you do for a living, like some professors, who must do this, and are paid by their university to attend these meetings, in interesting places like San Francisco, New York, London, Paris, etc.
Of course, if you are just a design engineer, working on your own, or for a small company, you have to pay for it all, yourself. Still, many of us in the old days, more than 30 years ago, still did this, because we loved audio as a hobby as well as an avocation and wanted to contribute to the 'art'. Well, that was then. What appears to happen now, in a future installment.
John, you are absolutely right, but it's a train we can't stop, nor should we want to. The problem with human endeavours is that you tend to go in deeper in your own field, but the field moves on through the new people entering it. In 1978 or so I attended my first AES in Eindhoven and the cutting edge in speaker measurement was cutting off the time response after some mSecs to be able to ignore the early reflections, so you could do 'quasi-anechoic' measurements in a normal room. Quite a feat involving lots of logic boards. Nowadays every amateur does this as a matter of fact. I think we all agree that is progress however you measure it.

BUT, if you are deep in anechoic measurements, there's nothing to invent anymore. John Vanderkooij had a paper on it a few years ago where he discussed the fact that cutting off those early reflections also deleted the speaker LF response of course, and he proposed to solve that by 'filtering' the time response by the inverse of the speaker lf roll-off to add that lf response back in. But people were yawning all around me: they already had been there, done that. They probably moved on to inventing DSP algorithms to make cell phones more intelligible (sp?) with less power or something like that.

The moral is, that when you get to our age, you ALWAYS feel like there's no longer any appreciation for what you do, be it audio or whatever engineering practise. I myself have a lot of fun playing with power amps and error correction, but no professional at the AES has any interest into that: been there, done that, it's documented, lets move on.

It may seem like some grand conspiracy to shut us out but the truth of the matter is, the organisation moves on but individual members slow down, get stuck in their favorite routines and get replaced by newbee's with grand plans and even grander ideas that fit society's interests of the day. Until they get replaced.

I have decided to enjoy it for as many years as possible, but we analog audio engineers and serious diy-ers are becoming a lunatic fringe. There would be something seriously wrong with society if it was otherwise.

jd
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Old 2nd August 2010, 08:11 PM   #5382
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Please, Jan, I may not hob-nob with Dr. Lipshitz, but I get plenty of appreciation. I had 3 of my designs at the latest hi fi show. People come up to me in the hallways. This dismissal of any modern efforts is a political one, rather than one of finding audio 'truth'. That includes people in the background finding me or my colleagues, obsolete, as if we do NOT subscribe to new ideas, as some physicists in the past, appeared to do.
What we find a problem are things such as: Bandwidth can be limited to 20KHz or so without any significant change, or that double blind tests that show very little if anything of difference between electronic components have any real meaning to people who hear differences.
What is directing me to talk about this is the fact that an engineer friend of mine is giving a paper or two at the next AES. He has done his homework and measurements, but I told him last night, to not necessarily expect that he will get into the JAES. If things are what they have been over the last decades, he will be rejected. Still, it is about time that his work sees the light of day.
Of course, he is only an engineering graduate from UCB, worked at AMPEX, Sony, and many other companies and has a number of patents. Still, I have concerns.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 10:08 PM   #5383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
alien imposters!
Gee, my 23KHz rating at age 18 for a sonar test in a soundproofed room within a room at a Naval base must have been outa-space-cake.
On the other hand, alien abduction would be the perfectly sensible rationale for ending up such a total crackpot.

Last edited by jacco vermeulen; 2nd August 2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 10:44 PM   #5384
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Wow, darn good Jacco. A small aside. Once, I thought that I had a 'notch' at 19KHz. I found that the 'notch' was created by the Electrovoice T-35 tweeter. John Meyer and I measured dozens of T350's and found the same problem. Apparently some cancellation mechanism in the phase plug.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 11:40 PM   #5385
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WHAT???
Someone abducted an alien??
And made them listen to high-end audio??

...oh the pure torture of it all!!
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Old 3rd August 2010, 02:41 AM   #5386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
Gee, my 23KHz rating at age 18 for a sonar test in a soundproofed room within a room at a Naval base must have been outa-space-cake.
Hell, I think I can hear that now. Only trouble is that there is no source playing.
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Old 3rd August 2010, 02:55 AM   #5387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
Gee, my 23KHz rating at age 18 for a sonar test in a soundproofed room within a room at a Naval base must have been outa-space-cake.
On the other hand, alien abduction would be the perfectly sensible rationale for ending up such a total crackpot.
Maybe it was the aliens who abducted you making you think they were the navy! It sounds like an alien human conspiracy and makes as much sense as some things that get posted on this web site!

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Old 3rd August 2010, 08:13 AM   #5388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Ohh I don't doubt that; from my own on-off research in these things I found lots of cases where something in the physical world causes neural activity of which the subject is totally unaware. In fact, that's the basis for our life, isn't it. If we would be aware of all that goes on in our brains we would be overwhelmed and freeze up or something. Can you imagine an airliner pilot being aware of all the myriad signals going through all those miles of cabling in the plane he's flying?
Yes, the subconscious is a wonderful thing and the conscious mind can only focus on one thing at a time. From what I read, and I didn't read it word for word, they were measuring stress. They took a lot of effort to make the participants comfortable.

And like I said before, if the results are consistent and repeatable then it's a good indication that they heard the high frequency. They did it backwards and forwards, double blind, Jan.

When I spend a long periods (days) listening to only SACDs and LPs I have a difficult time going back to CDs, even very good recordings. It takes my ears time to adjust. I find them more fatiguing for whatever reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman
No; what I don't see in this study is the link between brain activity and audible effects. That's the jumping to conclusions, unwarranted, or if you prefer, wishfull thinking.
Surely you saw the pictures Jan.

I'm certainly no expert in reading PETs or EEGs but it sounded like they knew what they were doing.

John
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Old 3rd August 2010, 09:38 AM   #5389
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HI
well now I feel good, but last year my hyperacusis like a lot my turntable and not the 1541 nos or walkman , cd ,pc mp3
the TT give me the only way to ear my music....
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Old 3rd August 2010, 09:46 AM   #5390
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@ janneman,

of course in the JAES only a small percentage of the convention papers can be peer reviewed and get published. Not to mention any additional material send in that was not presented at a convention.

The topics at the conventions reflect the direction in which the industry is walking and this direction is mainly not related to the best possible reproduction quality overall.

The review process can not ensure that every material is absolutely perfect nor that every problem of the specific topic is solved, but should insure that methodology and experimentation is done according to scientific standards and that any reasoning does not violate rules of formal logic.

I can´t judge if there is some ´political movement´ influencing the review process but the span in quality of the published articles is indeed surprising.
Sometimes you can´t believe that all reviewers are working with similar guidelines.

BTW, could someone link me to the ´discussion to death´of the Oohashi papers? I was not able to find it.
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