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Old 1st August 2010, 06:48 PM   #5351
SY is offline SY  United States
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That paper has been discussed to death here. Let's just say that it's not entirely convincing.
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Old 1st August 2010, 07:24 PM   #5352
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Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
[snip]They could measure a difference in the electrical activity of the brain using an EEG when high frequencies above what we perceive as sound were present. Maybe audiophiles got it write after all.
I'm torn between two reactions:

1). Brain acitivity says nothing. There's lots of things that cause brain activity. Does that mean you HEAR all that? The color of the sunrise? The taste of scotch? A compliment from your friend?

2). I feel supported by this. It's very easy to measure a difference in electrical brain activity depending on whether the listener is looking at the amp brand label, or is drinking a good scotch or remembers his friends' opinion on the amp or is listening blind.
Objectivistst had it right after all

So I do both...

jd
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Old 1st August 2010, 07:37 PM   #5353
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That paper has been discussed to death here. Let's just say that it's not entirely convincing.
Didn't someone determine that the more likely scenario was that there were some intermodulation products in the audible range being produced by their super tweeter setup?

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Old 1st August 2010, 07:54 PM   #5354
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Interesting paper, Johnloudb. It is research like this that is worthwhile.
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Old 1st August 2010, 08:06 PM   #5355
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Interesting paper, Johnloudb. It is research like this that is worthwhile.
But by many accounts, it was rather sloppy research.

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Old 1st August 2010, 08:34 PM   #5356
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As is just about everything.
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Old 1st August 2010, 09:53 PM   #5357
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Didn't someone determine that the more likely scenario was that there were some intermodulation products in the audible range being produced by their super tweeter setup?
I don't think anyone "determined" anything, but several alternate explanations which are plausible, within the bounds of well-established science, and were not considered by the authors have been proposed.
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Old 1st August 2010, 10:04 PM   #5358
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I don't think anyone "determined" anything, but several alternate explanations which are plausible, within the bounds of well-established science, and were not considered by the authors have been proposed.
Gotcha.

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Old 2nd August 2010, 06:27 AM   #5359
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
I'm torn between two reactions:

1). Brain acitivity says nothing. There's lots of things that cause brain activity. Does that mean you HEAR all that? The color of the sunrise? The taste of scotch? A compliment from your friend?

2). I feel supported by this. It's very easy to measure a difference in electrical brain activity depending on whether the listener is looking at the amp brand label, or is drinking a good scotch or remembers his friends' opinion on the amp or is listening blind.
Objectivistst had it right after all

So I do both...

jd
Hi Jan,

1) Yes, and there could also have been a woman streaking outside the window every time the high frequency component was added to the music.

I think it is more a matter of repeatability of the results, and they were looking at specific areas of the brain like the brain stem. They were looking for a neurophysiological response.

In the present study, therefore, we addressed this issue by using quantifiable and reproducible measurements of brain activity.

To avoid any influence by the order of presentation, the four different conditions were performed in random order across the subjects. After a 10-min rest, the same four conditions were repeated in reverse order. Neither the subjects nor the experimenters knew which conditions were being performed.

2) See 1).

People can pick apart just about any study. On the Hyperacusis Network board, people pick apart the blind studies done by Jastreboff and Hazell of 350+ patients, even though it was well thought out and very well documented. They say, "Oh it was fixed because it was done in their clinics and wasn't double blind."
Well, you can't do double blind when counseling is involved.

Sy says this has been talked to death so, I won't argue this anymore and it's not going to change any minds.

John
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Old 2nd August 2010, 07:57 AM   #5360
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Hi Jan,

[snip]I think it is more a matter of repeatability of the results, and they were looking at specific areas of the brain like the brain stem. They were looking for a neurophysiological response.
[snip]John
Ohh I don't doubt that; from my own on-off research in these things I found lots of cases where something in the physical world causes neural activity of which the subject is totally unaware. In fact, that's the basis for our life, isn't it. If we would be aware of all that goes on in our brains we would be overwhelmed and freeze up or something. Can you imagine an airliner pilot being aware of all the myriad signals going through all those miles of cabling in the plane he's flying?

No; what I don't see in this study is the link between brain activity and audible effects. That's the jumping to conclusions, unwarranted, or if you prefer, wishfull thinking.

jd
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