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Old 25th July 2010, 01:05 PM   #5191
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Jakob,

I do agree with you; critical listening under DB conditions most probably needs some special training or focus or introspection, whatever you want to call it. Sighted listening runs on a kind of autopilot, it's what you've been doing all your life, it's a natural process for your brain to incorporate what you hear, what you feel, what you know about the DUTs, what you know about what they cost, how your peers rate them etc into a final opinion. Now all of a sudden your brain has to get used to form this opinion with just ONE sense instead of 6 or more. Definitely needs preparation & building up experience!

jd
Absolutely. And as we are humans, the same mechanisms could help to grasp the īreal thingī or could led to a totally false perception.

And quite the same mechanisms are still at work under blind test conditions.
In a blind test we block the "peeking" part but add a "destabilization" part as we are (normally) not used to do decisions only by _one_ sense.

Our conscious perception is the result of the reaction of our sensory system to a stimulus and the following quite complex filtering of this reaction.

Reg. seīs post; you simply canīt have it both ways

first- you have to do controlled blind tests (despite of all of your listening experience)
and
second- no we donīt need training and controls in our tests (because of all of your listening experience)

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Old 25th July 2010, 01:20 PM   #5192
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Yes. Another interesting thing I recently learned:

Did you know that of all the hearing hair cells that are groupd in a certain frequency area in your ears, only about 1/4 functions as inputs to your brain, and that the other 3/4 are actually DRIVEN from your brain to enhance the movements of the 1/4 input hair cells?
It's a positive feedback process that allows the brain to suppress freq bands it just isn't interested in at this particular moment, or to enhance the sensitivity in a particular freq band it IS interested in. So hearing a tiger roar can let the brain adjust your hearing sense to focus on the roar while you become totally unaware (literally momentary deaf) to the other sounds around you that are not so important right now.

It's mostly automatic, but you can use it to conciously 'listen' to a certain sound, for instance. I wonder how this mechanism impacts sighted and DB listening?

Anyway, knowing this, the phrase 'I hear what I hear' takes on a whole new meaning to me.

jd
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Old 25th July 2010, 02:51 PM   #5193
brianco is offline brianco  Ireland
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Janneman's post is exceptionally interesting as it explains what many of us have experienced in certain circumstances. Perhaps it explains why it is that becoming used to one's wife's voice can result in temporary deafness - especially when she wants money for something considered such as yet another pair of shoes!!

This whole matter of DB testing was as most of us know, covered widely if not deeply in the infamous marathon thread on cables - which had to be shut down. Can anyone with wide experience in fact describe the benefits of true DB testing?
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:07 PM   #5194
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brianco View Post
Can anyone with wide experience in fact describe the benefits of true DB testing?
That was also done several times in the cable thread, unfortunately to little effect on the pre-Enlightenment thought process rampant in corners of the tiny, niche high end audio community.

It all sums up to this: it will distinguish what you can actually hear from what you imagine you can hear. That frees you to concentrate efforts on variables that actually make a sonic difference.

My experience- a few dozen (amateur) double blind audio tests, a few thousand (professional) double blind haptics tests, and a few thousand (professional) double blind organoleptic tests. Outside of sensory research, a few hundred (professional) double blind biochemical tests. Reasonably "wide experience."
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:08 PM   #5195
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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@ janneman,

isnīt that the quite new research result about the possible working mechanism for outer hair cells helping the inner hair cells ?

@ brianco,

a proper test (which means a lot more than only being double blind) can give with a quantifiable probability the result that a certain effect is really audible.

And of course the phrase "is audible" may have a lot of different meanings. It could be "audible to at least one listener (on earth)" or "audible to the average person (means of all persons living on earth)" or "audible to experienced listeners (depending on the definition of experienced)" and so on.

In a _proper_ test it is somewhere descripted what the aim of the investigation was.

Last edited by Jakob2; 25th July 2010 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:10 PM   #5196
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I have talked about that many times and i will do it here again. A hypothetical totally transparent system may not sound totally satisfying because we are listening to a recording and not reality. So it could be that a technically non perfect amplifier sounds better most of the time then a totally transparent ( or call it blameless ) one. When i develop preamps for example i use a straight wire bypass and compare input to output.
Still in the final stage of development i do some tuning so that the preamp gives a subjectively satisfying result in a real world condition.
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:24 PM   #5197
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
Yes. JJ is trying to determine general audibility thresholds for certain phenomena. I am testing a specific claim by a specific individual in a specific context. Very different things.
I am terribly sorry, but jj for very good reasons did not restrict his assertion for a certain class of experiments. The requirements for good/proper tests are simply the same for all hypothesis tested.
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:34 PM   #5198
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
The requirements for good/proper tests are simply the same for all hypothesis tested.
I'm terribly sorry, but until you can show me that a bright and accomplished fellow like jj actually said such a ridiculous thing, I do not believe you.

Quote:
And of course the phrase "is audible" may have a lot of different meanings. It could be "audible to at least one listener (on earth)" or "audible to the average person (means of all persons living on earth)" or "audible to experienced listeners (depending on the definition of experienced)" and so on.
Now that is something I agree with.
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:43 PM   #5199
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I'm terribly sorry, but until you can show me that a bright and accomplished fellow like jj actually said such a ridiculous thing, I do not believe you.

<snip>
The requirements for a test are that it has to be objective, reliable and valid.

These requirements are totally independent of any hypothesis tested. Do you really think jj would find these requirements ridiculous?
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Old 25th July 2010, 03:44 PM   #5200
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That's not "requirement," that's motherhood and apple pie. "Glittering generalities" is the usual English phrase.
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