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Old 24th July 2010, 06:05 PM   #5171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Are you suggesting that John Curl (to whom SY's proposal was directed), with his 40+ years of critical listening behind his belt, should need a special training course before he could participate in a DB test?
Yes. Apparently you must train someone how to hear that which they're already claiming to hear.

"This cable definitely has more high end extension and and a cleaner midrange."

"No no. You're not doing it right. Here, let me show you..."



se
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Old 24th July 2010, 06:07 PM   #5172
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Jakob,

Are you suggesting that John Curl (to whom SY's proposal was directed), with his 40+ years of critical listening behind his belt, should need a special training course before he could participate in a DB test?

jd
A careful experimenter is using controls and pretests to answer a question like this.

As John Curl has pointed out that he in the past felt distracted by the double blind test protocols i think it is safe to conclude that he does not have 40+ years of critical listening under blind test conditions behind his belt.

That may sound offensive but is in no way meant so.

Your underlying assumption is that listening under test conditions is exactly the same as listening sighted. Although that may sound reasonable on a first glance it is just a claim that has to be investigated/verified.

One step in this direction is the incorporation of positive and negative controls.

Everything else is prone to experimenter (confirmation) bias. One of the most dangerous parts in testing.

Last edited by Jakob2; 24th July 2010 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 24th July 2010, 06:34 PM   #5173
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post

As John Curl has pointed out that he in the past felt distracted by the double blind test protocols
Only the "no peeking" part.
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Old 24th July 2010, 06:46 PM   #5174
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post

"No no. You're not doing it right. Here, let me show you..."



se
Isnīt that exactly what everybody does by insisting that a blind test should have been done instead of..... ?
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:30 PM   #5175
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Right on, Jacob. How could I, now an old man, ever survive, without computer simulations of my designs and double blind listening tests?
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:53 PM   #5176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
A careful experimenter is using controls and pretests to answer a question like this.

As John Curl has pointed out that he in the past felt distracted by the double blind test protocols i think it is safe to conclude that he does not have 40+ years of critical listening under blind test conditions behind his belt.

That may sound offensive but is in no way meant so.

Your underlying assumption is that listening under test conditions is exactly the same as listening sighted. Although that may sound reasonable on a first glance it is just a claim that has to be investigated/verified.

One step in this direction is the incorporation of positive and negative controls.

Everything else is prone to experimenter (confirmation) bias. One of the most dangerous parts in testing.
Jakob,

I do agree with you; critical listening under DB conditions most probably needs some special training or focus or introspection, whatever you want to call it. Sighted listening runs on a kind of autopilot, it's what you've been doing all your life, it's a natural process for your brain to incorporate what you hear, what you feel, what you know about the DUTs, what you know about what they cost, how your peers rate them etc into a final opinion. Now all of a sudden your brain has to get used to form this opinion with just ONE sense instead of 6 or more. Definitely needs preparation & building up experience!

jd
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Old 24th July 2010, 07:58 PM   #5177
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Originally Posted by Jakob2 View Post
Isnīt that exactly what everybody does by insisting that a blind test should have been done instead of..... ?
Only if you insist that your opinion has some value over and above being your PERSONAL opinion. As long as you agree your personal opinion is just that, probably nobody would care how you arrived at that opinion, even if you only consulted your toenails for it.

However, as soon as you start stating that it is a fact that amp x sounds so much difference from amp y because you yourself heard the difference, you would convince a lot more of us if you heard it in a statistically relevant, well-controlled and repeatable test.

jd
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Old 24th July 2010, 08:19 PM   #5178
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Jakob,

I do agree with you; critical listening under DB conditions most probably needs some special training or focus or introspection, whatever you want to call it. Sighted listening runs on a kind of autopilot, it's what you've been doing all your life, it's a natural process for your brain to incorporate what you hear, what you feel, what you know about the DUTs, what you know about what they cost, how your peers rate them etc into a final opinion. Now all of a sudden your brain has to get used to form this opinion with just ONE sense instead of 6 or more. Definitely needs preparation & building up experience!

jd
As I wrote earlier, I've done a number of blind listening tests (not knowing the brand names of the setup components, their cost, reputation and previous reviews). I could pin point the sound signature and sound quality of those setups. There was no need for double blind tests.

My feeling is that DB tests are being demanded by those people who don't trust their ears, or aren't aware of the possibility to trust their ears.
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Old 24th July 2010, 08:27 PM   #5179
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
Only if you insist that your opinion has some value over and above being your PERSONAL opinion. As long as you agree your personal opinion is just that, probably nobody would care how you arrived at that opinion, even if you only consulted your toenails for it.

However, as soon as you start stating that it is a fact that amp x sounds so much difference from amp y because you yourself heard the difference, you would convince a lot more of us if you heard it in a statistically relevant, well-controlled and repeatable test.

jd
Appreciation of music, live and reproduced, is a very personal matter.
Therefore, any appreciation of any piece of gear used in a stereo setup can only be personal.

In spite of the above, there are some things which are typical, or common to groups of gear. For instance, highly increased details and microdyanamics, especially in the mid frequencies, is typical to vary many SET amps. Some may like it, while others may distaste it, however, it is there as a fact.
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Old 24th July 2010, 08:43 PM   #5180
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Originally Posted by jacco vermeulen View Post
no prob, i enjoy fooling around (most of the time) and some folks might find it helpfull.
Mr Johnston is in his late 50s at the moment, afaih, so "retired old" sounds like my kind of humor.
MID 50's please!

Sy,

Suppose I had JJ stop by my place and I set up a system with a switch in it to reverse the line level interconnect direction. If he would state that he could hear a difference and was satisfied with the demonstration being accurate, would that count as much as a more formal test? What effect would that have on your opinions?

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