Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 22nd July 2010, 07:34 AM   #5041
diyAudio Member
 
jan.didden's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Great City of Turnhout, Belgium
Blog Entries: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
Jan & all others - let's take the ABX debate off line...

tnx.

_-_-bear
I agree we get into repeat territory. No need to continue off-line either.

jd
__________________
Never explain - your friends don't need it and your enemies won't believe you anyway - E. Hubbart
Check out Linear Audio Vol 7
!
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 01:24 PM   #5042
expert in tautology
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Wait - forget about what test, or who is right for a minute. I don't want to waste bandwidth on this emotional hot button... BUT, is anyone who is participating (posting) now saying that there are no audible differences to be found in (roughly equivalent type and quality):

- resistors
- capacitors
- inductors
- semiconductors
- opamps (two different suppliers, same type?)
- etc.??

Forget about these complex devices like D/A chips...

What exactly is being said now?
Are we back to saying that all gear that specs below some (low) threshold sounds essentially identical??

Are we saying that if this gear DOES NOT SOUND THE SAME that we can make that determination via ANY measurement or testing method?? If so which one(s)??

Edit: oh yeah, and if there is such a testing method that reveals differences, what is being found - things cluster up into groups that have indiscernable differences, a bell curve, or a linear distribution?

My position is that all we have at our disposal are tools, techniques and ears - thus in reality the field of audio remains that of an art based upon and utilizing technologies and is not a science. ie. nothing is completely deterministic.

THUS: a device like the BLOWTORCH!!

_-_-bear
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]

Last edited by bear; 22nd July 2010 at 01:34 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 01:38 PM   #5043
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
BUT, is anyone who is participating (posting) now saying that there are no audible differences to be found in (roughly equivalent type and quality):

- resistors
- capacitors
- inductors
- semiconductors
- opamps (two different suppliers, same type?)
- etc.??

Forget about these complex devices like D/A chips...

What exactly is being said now?
Are we back to saying that all gear that specs below some (low) threshold sounds essentially identical??

Are we saying that if this gear DOES NOT SOUND THE SAME that we can make that determination via ANY measurement or testing method?? If so which one(s)??
There's a lot of wiggle room in the word "roughly." And it depends on what you mean by "gear." Speakers? Phono cartridges?

I will say unequivocally that NO ONE has ever demonstrated that they can hear the difference between two boxes of gain that have reasonably low distortion, adequate bandwidth, are not driven into overload, and have appropriate input and output impedances for a given application. To put a fine point on it, NO ONE has demonstrated that there is any audible difference between a Blowtorch and a cheap op-amp based linestage of competent design (the vast majority of commercial product).

The Blowtorch is analogous to a Rolex- it is gorgeous, beautifully made and engineered, and a total luxury and status item. But a $19.95 Timex tells time just as well.
__________________
"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous."- H. L. Mencken
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 01:47 PM   #5044
diyAudio Member
 
abraxalito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hangzhou - Marco Polo's 'most beautiful city'. 700yrs is a long time though...
Blog Entries: 84
Send a message via MSN to abraxalito Send a message via Yahoo to abraxalito Send a message via Skype™ to abraxalito
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
There's a lot of wiggle room in the word "roughly."
But positively capacious is the room for manoeuvre in the following lexis: <reasonably ... adequate ... appropriate ... competent>
__________________
The great audio capacitor myth : 'There's such a thing as too many PSU caps'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 02:01 PM   #5045
diyAudio Member
 
Joshua_G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Small village, Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
There's a lot of wiggle room in the word "roughly." And it depends on what you mean by "gear." Speakers? Phono cartridges?

I will say unequivocally that NO ONE has ever demonstrated that they can hear the difference between two boxes of gain that have reasonably low distortion, adequate bandwidth, are not driven into overload, and have appropriate input and output impedances for a given application. To put a fine point on it, NO ONE has demonstrated that there is any audible difference between a Blowtorch and a cheap op-amp based linestage of competent design (the vast majority of commercial product).

The Blowtorch is analogous to a Rolex- it is gorgeous, beautifully made and engineered, and a total luxury and status item. But a $19.95 Timex tells time just as well.
So, do you design your tube preamps for measurements only?
If this is so, why tubes and not opamps?
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 02:26 PM   #5046
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
PMA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Prague
This is a VERY good question Joshua, I thought about the same many times, regarding SY.
__________________
Pavel Macura
http://web.telecom.cz/macura/audiopage.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 05:12 PM   #5047
expert in tautology
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
SY, bring ur box with gain over some time... or your box with unity gain, and we can see what we shall see. Perhaps you will be on the mark and there will be no difference, but I'd be stunned if that were so... CERTAINLY not with a power amp. No chance. Zero, zip, nil, nada. Not here. And I don't have a weird load to present either... fyi.

Weird operator/owner perhaps, you'll have to decide.

The offer is pretty much open for anyone... you have to call ahead (email works...). I'll be sitting out waiting...

_-_-bear

PS. it's an art no matter how much engineering is applied... and it's not all the same.
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 05:15 PM   #5048
expert in tautology
diyAudio Member
 
bear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: New York State USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
But positively capacious is the room for manoeuvre in the following lexis: <reasonably ... adequate ... appropriate ... competent>
Fill in the blanks - work with the general concept. It's the concept that counts.
__________________
_-_-bear
http://www.bearlabs.com -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- [...2SJ74 Toshiba bogus asian parts - beware! ]
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 06:02 PM   #5049
diyAudio Member
 
john curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: berkeley ca
Of course, this is the whole point of the Blowtorch thread in the first place.
People first wanted to copy it, as they had heard about it. Then, others of similar belief to SY, poked fun at it for being so expensive and excessive in mass, power consumption, etc.
After all, why couldn't a simple plastic box with a couple of IC stages do the same job?
Well, it doesn't, for me, especially on long term listening. I found this out, decades ago, especially when the 'new' solid state preamps were the only things available for retail sale, back in the early 1970's.
However, short term, and especially ABX tests would have fooled me into thinking that the new solid state stuff was at least as good as the older quality tube stuff. I'm glad that I did not go in this direction, however, Tom Holman and Dave Spiegel allegedly did, and dropped out of the consumer audio business.

Last edited by john curl; 22nd July 2010 at 06:29 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2010, 06:11 PM   #5050
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
So, do you design your tube preamps for measurements only?
If this is so, why tubes and not opamps?
Read my phono preamp article where I explain the rationale for using tubes in that application.
__________________
"The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous."- H. L. Mencken
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:15 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2