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Old 21st July 2010, 01:34 AM   #4971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
We're back to the 100's of times oversampled bass being problematic, yawn.
At the risk of going way off topic, there is a shred of engineering explanation behind this. I believe it was Peter Craven or one of his colleagues who mentioned to me what it was - noise modulation in 1-bit DACs.
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Old 21st July 2010, 01:48 AM   #4972
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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Default the analog infinite resolution, digital grainy thing is really tiresome

"Miles Smiles"; obvious tape hiss on the CD, interesting view into the recording space ambience as you hear his voice instructions between takes on the multiple mic positions

In the demos from Plangent Processes at a BAS meeting Jamie claimed even as late as the 70's analog tape masters often had large mechanical drag/scrape flutter IMD smearing - and played clips purporting to show better resolution of musical note's decay into noise after his digital processing to reduce the mechanical record/playback speed modulations - his spectral plots are technically convincing that modern digital is a big win in "time resolution" over common analog mastering practice of that era

with noise shaped dither to extend amplitude resolution even RedBook CD digital can be very good as a consumer delivery format

Last edited by jcx; 21st July 2010 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 21st July 2010, 02:00 AM   #4973
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I use the Korg M1000 on double DSD. I use the software that comes with the Korg to downsample. I know Faulkners work but so far i did not make any efford to improve the process. It is just a hobby and recently i am so busy that i seldom find the time to play music. Actually the girl that sings in our band has a very good ear and next time i will try to listen with her if i can do a better job. I usually record acosustically directly into the Korg with 2m Klotz cable and a Microtech Gefell ORTF pair. The DSD tracks right into my preamp sound decent so i have hope for Digital. Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience.
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Old 21st July 2010, 06:55 AM   #4974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
I have lots of CD's where you can clearly hear the tape hiss and the lack of it between cuts. It acts like self dither.
Sure, it is there. The question is how exactly is the hiss digitized. And, try to play the same disc on different players. Does it always sound same?
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Old 21st July 2010, 09:12 AM   #4975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMA View Post
Sure, it is there. The question is how exactly is the hiss digitized.
The same as any other signal. Why would it be any different? A signal is just a single valued function.

When you have data showing audibility of a level-matched input versus output comparison of a 16/44 A/D-D/A chain on an analog signal, I'll be most interested to see it.
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Old 21st July 2010, 10:21 AM   #4976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Demol View Post
Hi Joachim,

What recorder are you using to capture to DSD? Try the following -

Convert from DSD to PCM 176.4 / 24.

Down sample to 44.1 / 24 using a) Tony Faulkners averaging program (no
LPF) and b) a high quality SRC program (typically with with brickwall
filtering).

Use whatever dithering sounds best for that particular program material to
reduce from 24 bits to 16 bits.

Listen carefully at every step of the process to see the progressive
changes and where the biggest subjective quality reduction is.

I have done this exact process myself. The results can be surprising.

cheers

T
Terry, I'm not surprised that averaging software, downsampling technique and the rest makes a big difference. Isn't the principle of dithering based on having an input signal that is polite enough to withstand averaging? Different averaging for different degrees of politeness.

Dithering is a crutch for a crippled medium that does not have enough resolution for the job it tries to undertake. Real high-resolution may one day be a cure. Until then, my ears tell me it doesn't work, or is not implemented well enough in musical media that I can actually buy (CDs) of music I want to hear. So I play lots of LPs, the best of which make a fool of CD. That's why I am here, learning how to get a bit more pleasure from that old medium.
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Old 21st July 2010, 10:29 AM   #4977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Coleman View Post
Dithering is a crutch for a crippled medium that does not have enough resolution for the job it tries to undertake.
Would you say that about bias in tape?

Agreed that most CDs suck, but frankly, so do most LPs. Sound quality, the way an audiophile would define it, is not high priority in the music business.
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Old 21st July 2010, 10:53 AM   #4978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Would you say that about bias in tape?

Agreed that most CDs suck, but frankly, so do most LPs. Sound quality, the way an audiophile would define it, is not high priority in the music business.
My point about dither was that it does not provide the same solution as increased resolution - just a shame we can't seem to get it.

I am lucky enough to actually LIKE the repertory recorded by Decca & EMI (classical series). Some of them combine unbeatable performances of fine compositions AND give exhilarating sound. They really are worth the (considerable) effort needed to tackle mechanics (turntable setup) and phono stage design. From a 6000 LP stash, I can get a long way, sometimes more enjoyably than live performances.

Agreed that "the Biz" cares very little for real sound quality - it's quantity (albums per iPod) rather than quality.
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Old 21st July 2010, 10:56 AM   #4979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod Coleman View Post
My point about dither was that it does not provide the same solution as increased resolution -
Well, yes, it does, with one exception- it raises the noise floor so that it's only 30 dB better than vinyl rather than 40dB better. Please read the Lipshitz papers and have a look at the (randomly chosen) experimental data presented by Stereophile.
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Old 21st July 2010, 11:00 AM   #4980
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Dithering requires averaging doesn't it?
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