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Old 14th December 2013, 01:47 AM   #45701
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Max,
I have heard many systems that get it about right but it is the finer details that are just missing that make all the difference to me. The sound of fingers sliding on the fingerboard of a guitar, the sound of a squeaky pedal on a piano, or even being able to tell that the drummer is using a set of brushes on a cymbal instead of a generic high frequency sound. Those finer details are the things that we often don't notice are missing until you hear a track that you know and then you hear things never heard or noticed before.

That isn't going to happen with a mediocre speaker system, definitely not happening on a PC speaker with a cheap chip amp implementation.
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Old 14th December 2013, 02:29 AM   #45702
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by morinix View Post
So I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Do I have it right that a CD based system is being optimized for a Bruce Springsteen CD? And if so; What has been done with the DAC clocking?
In that particular case, nothing directly - I don't work on fixing what may be the problem, I rely on experience, from what has been effective in the past, and apply that. If the sum of all the improvements to date is enough to give satisfying sound then I'll leave it at that - with the CD system, which in fact was a throwaway HT all-in-one, the main efforts were directed towards ensuring very clean power was being fed to the sub-systems in the main box - this did the job well enough to prove the point, so I didn't go further.

If the Springsteen CD works well then everything works well - I can immediately put on straight afterwards a Beethoven String Quartet, or a Maria Callas performance, and they work beautifully - the system is not tuned or prettied up to work for some genre, rather it has the bugs removed which stop all the more 'difficult' recordings coming across well.
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Old 14th December 2013, 02:49 AM   #45703
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Max,
I have heard many systems that get it about right but it is the finer details that are just missing that make all the difference to me. The sound of fingers sliding on the fingerboard of a guitar, the sound of a squeaky pedal on a piano, or even being able to tell that the drummer is using a set of brushes on a cymbal instead of a generic high frequency sound. Those finer details are the things that we often don't notice are missing until you hear a track that you know and then you hear things never heard or noticed before.

That isn't going to happen with a mediocre speaker system, definitely not happening on a PC speaker with a cheap chip amp implementation.
Fortunately, this is largely not the case. I say largely, because the PC speakers hit the limits of their tiny power supply fairly early, there are volume issues here; where you are correct is that the cheap components fail to convince normally because they require too much warm up time - pricey gear should at their full potential quality within, say, 5 minutes from cold startup.

That fine detail you mention is trivial to pick up when a system is in its stride, and cheap speakers have no trouble doing it, if all the right steps have been taken beforehand.

As regards 'correcting' the music that can never be done, but what can be achieved is for every last detail that's in the recording be passed across to the listener with minimal damage. Then, the 'magic' of our mind's signal processing ability can take over, and effectively discard the grunge of the recording, we listen through the muck and 'hear' the music being played. A collection of Robert Johnson recordings on CD is pretty close to as bad as it gets, yet when all is in alignment there's a real man playing a guitar in front of you, you can feel his presence in the room ...
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Last edited by fas42; 14th December 2013 at 02:52 AM.
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Old 14th December 2013, 03:08 AM   #45704
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I have maintained this same thought/conclusion for a very long time.
I find it is the the novice/inexperienced audiophile and some reviewers that respond to this false detail in positive ways.

Dan.
Yes, detail should just be there without drawing attention to itself. Somewhat like good bass and "bad" bass - everyone knows the latter, like a kid jumping up and down on the bed yelling, "Look at me, look at me!!" - good bass completely integrates with the rest of the picture, you only notice its positive benefit by the impact of its sudden absence.

The absence of detail, though, has a somewhat more serious effect, it lends a cartoonish, 2 dimensional, unconvincing patina to the sound - one can't quite take the sound you're listening to fully seriously ...
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Old 14th December 2013, 04:15 AM   #45705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Max,
I have heard many systems that get it about right but it is the finer details that are just missing that make all the difference to me. The sound of fingers sliding on the fingerboard of a guitar, the sound of a squeaky pedal on a piano, or even being able to tell that the drummer is using a set of brushes on a cymbal instead of a generic high frequency sound. Those finer details are the things that we often don't notice are missing until you hear a track that you know and then you hear things never heard or noticed before.
It's those fine details like brushes, fingers sliding etc that some systems can easily over emphasize.....and to me that gets boring within about one minute.

Emphasis means masking....reduce the higher harmonics, and get the ratios right, and that fine detail just pops out of the air, and clean, and without drawing undue attention.
My ears can pick up undue emphasis from about a mile away.

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That isn't going to happen with a mediocre speaker system, definitely not happening on a PC speaker with a cheap chip amp implementation.
Are Stax SR-X Mk3's good enough ? .

Dan.
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Old 14th December 2013, 04:21 AM   #45706
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Stax are in another league compared to most cheap 50 cent speakers used in most PC speakers. All you need with those is a nice bass speaker for the body sensations!
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Old 14th December 2013, 04:21 AM   #45707
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Yes, detail should just be there without drawing attention to itself. .......The absence of detail, though, has a somewhat more serious effect, it lends a cartoonish, 2 dimensional, unconvincing patina to the sound - one can't quite take the sound you're listening to fully seriously ...
Yes, masking (distortions) reduces depth information detail, and renders depth information uncertain.
Very low frequency noise does this too.

Dan.
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Old 14th December 2013, 04:27 AM   #45708
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Stax are in another league compared to most cheap 50 cent speakers used in most PC speakers. All you need with those is a nice bass speaker for the body sensations!
Haha, yeah, I have a bass thumper that I can attach to my listening chair.
One mounted under each of the front sets of a Land Cruiser is a lot of fun.

The Stax can go seriously loud, and do provide a good amount of physical bass sensation, but not the same as proper, in room bass of course.

Dan.
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Old 14th December 2013, 07:50 AM   #45709
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Originally Posted by flg View Post
Kinda reminds me of the Arye V3 was it? And others. Lookin at the pics...
English would have been nice
It is similar, not same. There is not much to 'investigate', the best in this case is complete symmetry (with complementary-differential input) of both input and output to get distortion cancellation and PSU residuals cancellation. Balanced output with speaker not referred to ground brings about 30dB better PSR compared to speaker output with one terminal grounded, not many people probably realize this immediately. One have to design, build and understand.
Someone mentioned a 'toy', yes this is a toy, not meant to be produced in more pieces. And I like this toy very much .
We are in a BT thread, and there is a strong similarity as well, but at power level.
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Old 14th December 2013, 07:58 AM   #45710
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Pavel, Do you mind me asking what i/p devices you are using ?
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