John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II - Page 3934 - diyAudio
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Old 15th May 2013, 05:53 PM   #39331
SY is offline SY  United States
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Have you used that particular cartridge? If so, when, and how did you set it up?
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Old 15th May 2013, 05:57 PM   #39332
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Which cartridge SY, the EPC or the Grado? Which Grado is Scot using, by the way?
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Old 15th May 2013, 06:31 PM   #39333
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I don't know myself, you zeroed it on it without asking so I assumed you must know. I've heard his CD rips from it on my old ESLs and they sounded quite good. Listening aside, his cartridge "resolved" well enough that he could easily see waveform differences from one side to the other.
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Old 15th May 2013, 06:53 PM   #39334
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This is the problem, everyone:
Scott decided to evaluate a Wilson Audio test record to hear and measure what he could find. He ultimately mentioned that he heard no difference.
What is then the problem? Fake test record? Poorly resolving phono cartridge and playback system? Tin ears?
I think that the best that I can make of the situation, is a poorly resolving phono cartridge. From some experience, I think that might be the problem.
Now, what do I know about this test record?
Well, at a CES, I passed by the Wilson Audio booth, and I got brought into a conversation with Dave Wilson.
Now I know that Wilson Audio is not highly regarded by many 'critics' here. And even I must say that their speakers, like Porsches, are just too darned expensive.
However, this was the 1980's or so, and in the 1980's I worked on circuitry for Dave Wilson, including a 30 ips master recorder (what the test record sample came from) and advanced all jfet microphone electronics with +/-50V supplies and direct coupled, except for the input, when using certain microphones with phantom powering.
I had also gone to recording appointments with Dave, as an assistant, and heard live vs recorded comparisons with the 30 ips tape recorder and the WATT 1 loudspeakers that I still use today. However, I never worked FOR Dave Wilson permanently at any time.
In any case, Dave took me aside and told me about this test recording that he did, almost by accident, because of the differences they heard when transcribing the output from the 30 ips recorder to other media.
They were so shocked that the difference was as detectable as it was with a professional A/D-D/A converter added, that they decided to make a test record with the pure analog on one side, and the added AD-D/A.
So they had me listen, at the time, with their set-up. They didn't use 'forgiving' speakers like the Met7's, (I have 3 pairs in service at the moment), but WAMM or WATT-PUPPY playback with the best equipment available.
I got a copy, and somewhere along the line, I recommended it to Scott Wurcer. I am sorry that I did, somehow, at the moment.

Last edited by john curl; 15th May 2013 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 15th May 2013, 07:09 PM   #39335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Now that you made yourself the honour to depart from your previous posts (performance-cars analogy and arrogant/unsupported dropping of all MMs and any MC below $500), you start a peculiar start:

Cartridges are designed to be used as electric generators, not as motors.
Foundamentals are the same, dynamics are not.
Superposition can not be unconditionally applied, as parts of the mechanical section can show non-linear behaviour.

Moving Iron is not the same as moving magnet. There are differences in principles of operation and construction.

I would like to see supporting proof that MMs and MCs have different number of pole roll offs. My understanding is that they have the same number and this number is greater than 4. Some of these have (or they can have) different fc and Q when comparing between MM, MI, MC.

George
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Last edited by gpapag; 15th May 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 15th May 2013, 07:29 PM   #39336
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OK, Gapagag: How about 330 milli-Henrys, 250pf, 950+47K load. 17.5KHz or 450pf,720 milli-Henrys,630+47K load? 8.85KHz. Two famous Shure cartridges.
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Old 15th May 2013, 08:17 PM   #39337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Listening aside, his cartridge "resolved" well enough that he could easily see waveform differences from one side to the other.
I posed this question before but it was not answered. How can you be so sure that the waveform differences are not due to analog playback differences between two nominally identical tracks on two different sides on an album? I can imagine that the process of cutting two different tracks and playing back those two tracks would introduce more variation than the AD/DA process. Just think about the lousy channel separation of vinyl as one source of error. At any rate, you can't decide what is what on the basis of this test.

This as a separate issue from the audibility kerfuffle that bubbled up.
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Old 15th May 2013, 08:20 PM   #39338
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Well, Vacuphile, they TRIED to show people what they heard in the studio, AND I know that they tried to make both sides as identical as possible.
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Old 15th May 2013, 08:21 PM   #39339
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Quote:
How can you be so sure that the waveform differences are not due to analog playback differences between two nominally identical tracks on two different sides on an album? I can imagine that the process of cutting two different tracks and playing back those two tracks would introduce more variation than the AD/DA process. Just think about the lousy channel separation of vinyl as one source of error. At any rate, you can't decide what is what on the basis of this test.
It may be. I can come up with a dozen possible reasons. Maybe more. That's why I'm highly skeptical of zeroing in on one without really knowing what's going on (not even knowing what the cartridge is!).
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Old 15th May 2013, 08:22 PM   #39340
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They FIRST heard it in the studio, the record came from what they heard.
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