I was being slightly contentious 
I have a friend with the mu-so who loves it as his bedroom system but he only buys stuff in black boxes with green lights. I have never heard his high priced soundbar though. I do have to bite my tongue when I visit my sister as her husband is so proud of his sonos.
But I hope that there is someway to get quality back into the mainstream for audio and that high fidelity doesn't do an oozlum bird.
I have a friend with the mu-so who loves it as his bedroom system but he only buys stuff in black boxes with green lights. I have never heard his high priced soundbar though. I do have to bite my tongue when I visit my sister as her husband is so proud of his sonos.
But I hope that there is someway to get quality back into the mainstream for audio and that high fidelity doesn't do an oozlum bird.
Steven, the goal, I suppose, is to have a unique star ground point in all the system, so, no more parasitic currents in the grounds and no ground loops ?
The problem is to have the same clock everywhere.
If you feel problematic to use Radio systems to transmit digital signals, may-be you can think optical cables to feed your enclosures, isolating the grounds ?
The problem is to have the same clock everywhere.
If you feel problematic to use Radio systems to transmit digital signals, may-be you can think optical cables to feed your enclosures, isolating the grounds ?
Bill, That is what I am trying to do. The real question is where is the price point where you again lose the interest of the common person. How much will they spend when they see HT amps for a couple hundred dollars and the same with tower speakers from JBL, Klipsch and others that aren't exactly great equipment but they do make it look impressive. If the speaker is smaller will they think it should be cheaper, it is a difficult thing to answer. Would people really purchase all the iPhones if they knew the real cost they are paying in those two year contracts? I guess they do buy the MacBooks so if I can capture that type of customer I think I can bring high quality sound to that level of customer. I won't say it will be easy but that is the type of common customer I will be after, somewhat affluent but not necessarily the 1%'ers.
Christophe,
That is why I am talking to some real serious designers, this should be a simple idea for them. I won't put them in a box like a large consumer company would do. it will be a real design effort that they can put the money where it needs to be and do what they know will work correctly without having to meet some predetermined price point that just makes some things impossible when it comes down to that. No reason to make it gold plated bs, but real quality design thinking.
That is why I am talking to some real serious designers, this should be a simple idea for them. I won't put them in a box like a large consumer company would do. it will be a real design effort that they can put the money where it needs to be and do what they know will work correctly without having to meet some predetermined price point that just makes some things impossible when it comes down to that. No reason to make it gold plated bs, but real quality design thinking.
I have no idea what the right price point is. But if you can find a way to sell direct you get a lot more bang for the buck.
But note I have one pair of speakers that is 25 years old and another pair that are 21 years old so am not the target market! One day I will buy something made this century!
But note I have one pair of speakers that is 25 years old and another pair that are 21 years old so am not the target market! One day I will buy something made this century!
Bill,
I have you beat I have a pair of Altec Barcelona's that are about 40 years old untouched. Look like new. But they are way to big to go anywhere but in the large room they are in. I am trying to make something that is almost desktop size, not really as they would take over the desktop but not that big either. The approximate dimensions are 16" H x 6 1/2" W x 14" D. Cone size is equivalent to a 7" diameter speaker and the tweeter is a 1". Looking for about 107db max output. 35hz to 20Khz. I really want to come in under $1,500 per pair. That is my max target range. Direct sales to the customer with a lifetime warranty to the original owner.
I have you beat I have a pair of Altec Barcelona's that are about 40 years old untouched. Look like new. But they are way to big to go anywhere but in the large room they are in. I am trying to make something that is almost desktop size, not really as they would take over the desktop but not that big either. The approximate dimensions are 16" H x 6 1/2" W x 14" D. Cone size is equivalent to a 7" diameter speaker and the tweeter is a 1". Looking for about 107db max output. 35hz to 20Khz. I really want to come in under $1,500 per pair. That is my max target range. Direct sales to the customer with a lifetime warranty to the original owner.
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Speakers wise yes, but I do have a 1966 valve power amp Had to google the barcelona as not many Altec systems in UK. A beast and no doubt
Large room...I had one of those once. I am however interested in what you need to do you get true nearfield nirvana with speakers on the desktop (or just behind the desk). I you can put your monitor on top so much the better!
Dirty secret: I nearly bought a pair of infinity RS-1bs back to uk until common sense got the better of me. Soo much wrong about those and yet in my youth there were my idea of 'high end'.
Had to google the barcelona as not many Altec systems in UK. A beast and no doubt Large room...I had one of those once. I am however interested in what you need to do you get true nearfield nirvana with speakers on the desktop (or just behind the desk). I you can put your monitor on top so much the better!
Dirty secret: I nearly bought a pair of infinity RS-1bs back to uk until common sense got the better of me. Soo much wrong about those and yet in my youth there were my idea of 'high end'.
Since I've manufactured for JBL in the past I understand the amazing markup they have on their products. They do make them look nice when you know what they pay for the components and the industrial design. They were hell to work with though, very demanding on their side but very disorganized. If you look up the JBL XPL series of speakers you will see the front baffles I developed and produced for that product. I sold off my really old McIntosh amplifiers that were from the mid 50's but still have a Mac tube tuner an MR71, not sure of the vintage on that and their first SS integrated amp they made in the early 70's I think an MA6100 or something like that. The mac needs new caps, it doesn't work but it just needs some TLC to come back to life.
My speakers should sound great at close distance or farther away, I have a set in wooden enclosures I used for development. They have real strong bass, nothing like you would expect from a small cone size.
My speakers should sound great at close distance or farther away, I have a set in wooden enclosures I used for development. They have real strong bass, nothing like you would expect from a small cone size.
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What's "Reaction Molded Foam"? Like that two part urethane stuff that expands to fill the void?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Steve,
Sy is correct that is reaction injection molded polyurethane. It was a self skinning foam with a low density core. It was a very difficult part to mold as they seriously wouldn't accept one pin hole in the entire baffle. These speakers were sold mostly in Japan and the QC was through the roof. It took many tricks to make it work including having to make the wood we over-molded asymmetric to change the flow path. I designed the tooling and charged then good for that. I charge them 25K$ for the tooling design for four separate molds to make each size and the tooling vendor charged another $75K to produce the molds. They thought I was charging to much to make the parts, I wasn't charging enough. They actually went around the country trying to find someone else to produce the parts. I would get calls from my competitors telling me they turned them down since they couldn't figure out how I was making the parts to that quality standard. It wasn't easy. We made about 40K units I think. That was their top of the line consumer speaker at the time.
Sy is correct that is reaction injection molded polyurethane. It was a self skinning foam with a low density core. It was a very difficult part to mold as they seriously wouldn't accept one pin hole in the entire baffle. These speakers were sold mostly in Japan and the QC was through the roof. It took many tricks to make it work including having to make the wood we over-molded asymmetric to change the flow path. I designed the tooling and charged then good for that. I charge them 25K$ for the tooling design for four separate molds to make each size and the tooling vendor charged another $75K to produce the molds. They thought I was charging to much to make the parts, I wasn't charging enough. They actually went around the country trying to find someone else to produce the parts. I would get calls from my competitors telling me they turned them down since they couldn't figure out how I was making the parts to that quality standard. It wasn't easy. We made about 40K units I think. That was their top of the line consumer speaker at the time.
And why is that no one seems to wonder if our measuring ability, or concepts of measuring for these experiences, may be falling vastly short when there's such consistent experiences to say the contrary to what we think we should perceive? Does it not seem arrogant to just assume everyone is a blithering idiot if they present something contrary to our rudimentary understanding of our ears and brain?
It's hard for me to believe an online forum is just a trove of objectinist that can will their objectionism into manifestation beyond mere mortals...
Psychoacoustics, the Scientific Method applied to turning human sensory impressions into usable data?
or the complete lack of controls in much of that "consistent experience" that just happens to follow glossy rag reviewer's made up terminology, "guru" opinion?
the fact that how DACs, preamps, amplifiers, cables work is deep in the middle of the most studied, tested, technology of our age with little room for romance or mysteries when technobable audiophile suppositions are asserted?
Kindhornman, I for one applaud your basic objective - take the sound to the people. Remember, I built my entire system around a pair of loudspeakers, clerly demonstrating that in my view, the loudspeakers have the last word (literally). Not much sense investing loads of money in components if the speaker falls short. Its format is a matter of choice and designer's prowess, but clean and clear sound speaks for itself.
One does not require the very best drivers around for the job, as clearly witnessed by my wife's pair of JBL Ti600 floorstanders. She preferred them to AR94, which I thought would be her choice, as I felt they would do better with classical music, always and AR forte. It turned out she liked the JBLs better, This was a mid market priced pair, which made use of Audax's rebadged low end drivers, but was put together by someone who knew exactly what needed to be done and did it, resulting in a product which does better than a mere sum of parts. As you said, it's not easy but it can be done. Not a world class product, but does well for the money it costs, and then some.
The question is active or passive? Active does not necessarily mean multiamped, although perhaps in a more developed version you could use separate amps for bass and another for the mids and highs. Zhe current crop of IC based power op amps can be made to sound quite good - hardly High End, but quite reasonable. The overall package could be made so that it truly impresses. Go for it. I sincerely believe we (as a world market) need products like that which might push the barriers.
Give the consumers a chance to hear the real deal.
One does not require the very best drivers around for the job, as clearly witnessed by my wife's pair of JBL Ti600 floorstanders. She preferred them to AR94, which I thought would be her choice, as I felt they would do better with classical music, always and AR forte. It turned out she liked the JBLs better, This was a mid market priced pair, which made use of Audax's rebadged low end drivers, but was put together by someone who knew exactly what needed to be done and did it, resulting in a product which does better than a mere sum of parts. As you said, it's not easy but it can be done. Not a world class product, but does well for the money it costs, and then some.
The question is active or passive? Active does not necessarily mean multiamped, although perhaps in a more developed version you could use separate amps for bass and another for the mids and highs. Zhe current crop of IC based power op amps can be made to sound quite good - hardly High End, but quite reasonable. The overall package could be made so that it truly impresses. Go for it. I sincerely believe we (as a world market) need products like that which might push the barriers.
Give the consumers a chance to hear the real deal.
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Are we talking PE (protective earth ground here) if not a single star point in the circuitry is not the best option IMO, controlling the return currents and current loops through understanding where they are and what is flowing in each of the many current loops is a better option.
As I understand and experienced it, the problem of unwanted signals between grounds (witch are references in an unbalanced connection) is because the AC transformers are not perfectly isolated from AC parasitic signals.
So, if you measure voltages between the grounds of 2 AC powered devices not connected together, you can see-it. You can even, sometimes, feel-it with your fingers. AS the ground wires don't have 0 Ohm impedance, from DC to extreme HF, those currents will create voltages and those parasites voltages will be superposed to the signal.
In a multyway enclosure with Digital input, you will have severall PSUs. Two or more for each or the whole dual rails power amps, one or more for the digital world (clocks, DAC etc.), may-be one for analog preamplifiers stages and voltage references for the DACs...
Because it is in an unique enclosure, you can join all those grounds from PSUs to an unique point. Star ground. Of course, there will be parasitic currents in the loops between those PSUs. But the reference point will be at the exact same potential for every stage where the signal is involved. So, no error, and no parasitic currents from AC between those various stages, apart the variations of currents feeding them, induced by the modulation.
And, because the ground paths from all the stage to this reference point can be designed short, you can keep the impedance of those links low, so, minimize the voltage error despite the currents.
Am-I not right ?
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A digital design will have a ground plane not a star point, that is the worse thing you could do with a digital design, in fact anything above 1MHz will not benefit from a star point, digital or analogue.
A star point is not a universal fix, understanding where the current loops are and where it is flowing is a much better method internally to a component.
For mains coming from one spur is the best option.
Some interesting vies on this...
Tony Waldron's EMC ranting and ravings
A star point is not a universal fix, understanding where the current loops are and where it is flowing is a much better method internally to a component.
For mains coming from one spur is the best option.
Some interesting vies on this...
Tony Waldron's EMC ranting and ravings
I believe you are talking of the design of the digital boards themselves. IE the parasitic signals generated by all those clocks and switching circuits . Not at all the same story.
A ground plane is just a way to minimize the impedance of the ground connections, specially at HF.
Different boards, optimized by design, correctly filtered at their Power input to minimize HF, but all connected with no other ground loop to an unique star ground reference. That can be a ground plane if you can do-it, but it is not often possible, and not good for high currents with close low current sensitive parts.
Isolated ground planes connected together to an unique point, with clever isolation between high currents and low currents in the analog circuits.
It is my preference, other's ones ?
You seem to agree with what i said with your : "For mains coming from one spur is the best option".
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