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Old 10th February 2013, 09:14 PM   #34751
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I actually feel their soundstage is narrower than K701, especially on vocals. There is a certain harshness with a lot of recordings in the upper-mids / low treble though.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:28 PM   #34752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
I actually feel their soundstage is narrower than K701, especially on vocals. There is a certain harshness with a lot of recordings in the upper-mids / low treble though.
soundstage isnt really the right word, I dont mean deep and layered, so much as sounding like everything is taking place in a stadium, even if its a jazz recording. the treble makes people think they are detailed, but its more en etched, dentist drill type quality to me.

detailed and deep, is SRM007 mk II, which are better than MkI IMO. I admit I (like many) like a tiny nudge more bass slam than 100% neutral on headphones to make up for not feeling it in my body. not a fan of the 009 though, aside from the superb build quality.

Last edited by qusp; 10th February 2013 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:31 PM   #34753
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yeah HD800 arent as bad as it looks in the graph, I cant hack them anyway, due to peaky/piercing treble (sibilance is too kind a word) and impossibly large 'soundstage' unrelated to the recording, but headphone curves take a bit of getting used to, to look at.
I wonder ... most recordings in fact have large 'soundstages' but you would never know it listening to them on normal systems. Typically, these squash the sound down to a "nice" picture between the speakers, which is not what is encoded. That peaky/piercing treble is the starting point to getting bigger sound, which comes across badly in this case, because of excess distortion. Good tweaking doesn't change the FR, but eliminates the nasties injected into the treble by the system playback.

A "polite" system will be much, much harder to "fix", the information needed for good sound has been discarded by the combination of components; the "roughie" has far greater potential ...

Frank
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:37 PM   #34754
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Frank: i've got some pretty wide experience with headphones, I work in the field, modifying and repairing the most expensive and vintage headphones on the market is part of my living. intimate jazz does not take place in a superbowl, hot treble/upper mids, is hot treble/upper mids and their boosting is a common technique to give the illusion of more detail. HD800 are fairly well known for these artifacts and I dont disagree.

its common for fans to say they (and similar speakers and headphones) are simply neutral and thus unforgiving, thats crap IMO, there are more detailed headphones that dont make me feel the music is exploring my brain, rather than me exploring the music, if you catch my drift.

its a large ring radiator that faces to the rear of the ear pointing outwards slightly, this is part of the reason for the stadium size sound.

Last edited by qusp; 10th February 2013 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:38 PM   #34755
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
There is a certain harshness with a lot of recordings in the upper-mids / low treble though.
This is the real battleground in audio. As soon as people hear this they say that there is a fault in the recording. Wrong ... That recording is telling you that there is a fault in the playback system, commonly called "distortion" ...

Frank
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:53 PM   #34756
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Dr. Dre's system in his studio has something like 16 15" woofers in a custom Ocean Way system that probably has a similar balance to the headphones.
That should come as no surprise to most of us, right? Some of you pros here must have worked Hip-Hop shows. They are all about getting as many 18" drivers banging with as much power as possible. Hard to imitate that with headphones. The Beats attempt to. Maybe they'd be good for Reggae, too.
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Old 10th February 2013, 09:55 PM   #34757
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Frank: i've got some pretty wide experience with headphones, I work in the field, modifying and repairing the most expensive and vintage headphones on the market is part of my living. intimate jazz does not take place in a superbowl, hot treble/upper mids, is hot treble/upper mids and their boosting is a common technique to give the illusion of more detail. HD800 are fairly well known for these artifacts and I dont disagree.
Take a look at that FR posted by Esperado: I don't see hot mid/treble in that. Just about every speaker response shows more elevated mid/treble than that ...

Yes, I know that the responses are peaky -- every response curve, of the "best" headphones, I've seen looks a roller coaster mess, and differs dramatically from other, highly regarded units -- so what dictates a good headphone obviously is more than simple response curves.

All my experience tells me that the details are in the recording, but brash highlighting of them won't work, as you say. The ear/brain quickly tires of unnatural emphasising ... which is not saying that the details should be hidden, nor should it be said they aren't there. I suspect often the producers of the recording don't realise how much they have captured, so then what is the "right" playback ...?

Edit: Just quickly looked at a review of the HD800, sounds to me that they're doing the right thing: they give the impression that good speakers do, rather than sounding like headphones, a good thing to me. I was lent a pair of HD650s for a week, not my cup of tea. Pleasant enough sound and all that, but irritating after a few minutes or so, a claustophobic feeling. Much prefer listening to speakers ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 10th February 2013 at 10:11 PM. Reason: Correction of wording
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Old 10th February 2013, 10:01 PM   #34758
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Dan, ultrasone Edition 10? or Ed 8 ruthenium? tackily made pieces of very ordinary, crap plastic covered in various platings to look like something else. Yak leather pads are glued on (and cost $150EU to replace) no service manual available and no help from the manufacturer, I had to wing it working on a nearly 2K headphone... style over substance just like Beats for people with real money. the AKG 272 are very nice with enough power.

the active EQ and amp circuit looked pretty straight forward, think there are some pics in the head-fi DIY section somewhere, just a scattering of opamps that drive the transducers directly.

Frank, so youve just confirmed youve never heard them.... i'm aware of the effects of bad miking/production, but this effect is over everything, not just 'Jazz at the pawnshop' and as I said, i've heard much more detailed, yet less painful headphones. its down to the transducer material and impedance curve more than just plain frequency response, they probably need some damping in the amplifier, but I dont care for the Swedish vacuum cleaner styling enough to explore that.

Last edited by qusp; 10th February 2013 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 10:23 PM   #34759
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I have the circuit but should not share it. I can say that it has a Maxim headphone amp (running on 2 AA cells) and a discrete amp for the noise cancelling (feedback) microphone. There is a passive eq network to get the HF response up and a separate one to tune the noise cancelling.
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Old 10th February 2013, 10:30 PM   #34760
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hmm, odd, maybe i'm thinking of something else, I dont remember seeing anything that could have been the maxim, I presume thats not a plain soic8?
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