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Old 7th February 2013, 01:22 AM   #34341
Mr. dB is offline Mr. dB  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Mr. DB,
While you are correct that German engineering is first rate bar none, do not discount American engineers in that regard.
I don't discount American engineers at all. I do however discount the MBAs and bean counters that pay their salaries. They will never allow GM to make a product of Porsche quality.
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Old 7th February 2013, 01:28 AM   #34342
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Just like VW could make a great supercar if desired.
They do. The Bugatti Veyron. There's also the Audi R8.
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Old 7th February 2013, 01:39 AM   #34343
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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There's also the Audi R8.
which I would much prefer to a Veyron
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Old 7th February 2013, 02:26 AM   #34344
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We have often found that German/Swiss standards of mechanical perfection higher than typical American standards. That seems to come from early training and expectations.
However, when it comes to electronics, often the reverse is true, probably because we had so much early development in Silicon Valley and elsewhere, with military standards parallel to industrial and consumer because of the 'cold war'. Today, Germany might be caught up, being such a strong industrial society, where, I hope, engineers are still highly respected. I could be wrong about this, what do the rest of you think?
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Old 7th February 2013, 02:54 AM   #34345
kouiky is offline kouiky  United States
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As for German engineers, I don't think the public is blind enough to blame them for the design issues. I will say that the quality of German branded cars seem to be a slight downward spiral. Having an issue with a Mercedes Benz in 1985 would have landed an engineer at your local dealership to note and address the issue, where as today it's treated as just another shop repair like the American brands, to the tune of $120hr. BMW and Audi can be very pricy to fix, and many of the problems are petty and should have never been allowed to happen. I won't elaborate beyond this.

There are some very bright out of the box thinkers, but they are not the Yes, Ma'am types and place interest in quality and design above high profit margins. Also, if they do not have a Masters degree at minimum and fifteen years experience in a F500 company, they do not get the job as paper seems more important these days than originality or capability. US companies marketing departments have the final say on all matters.

Last edited by kouiky; 7th February 2013 at 03:13 AM.
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Old 7th February 2013, 03:20 AM   #34346
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You are right, kouiky. They don't make Mercedes or BMW's necessarily like they used to, is what you are telling me, I presume, and you are probably right.
Cycles come and go. Once, long ago, the Japanese studied American cars and almost gave up in despair of catching up. And look where they went!
Americans used to make pretty good cars, and they lost it by 1960 or so. Hopefully, they might be coming back.
The overall quality does seem to be driven by the executives, upstairs. '-)
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Old 7th February 2013, 03:25 AM   #34347
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Everybody try to make PA systems as good as possible, and, sometimes, it is not so bad.
Seems to be very little interest here in making audio better, shame about that ...

Anyway, I shall be very boring, and continue this theme ... . The most impressive audio systems I've ever heard have been PA systems, and obviously the worst have also been such. There are 2 or 3 that stick in my memory for the absolute clarity at high SPLs that they achieved, vastly superior to any high end setup I've come across. One was amplifying a full big band, with trumpets blazing, and I couldn't fault it. In contrast to a Sinatra tribute concert, similar big band running through a setup, and for most of the time I was hanging onto my seat, thinking it will be over soon, this dentist's chair can't last forever ...

So, one can get the extremes, meaning that the gear can do it if set up correctly, by someone who has a bit more than one or two brain cells. Which indicates, as far as I'm concerned, that pro gear can do high end sound if sufficiently finessed; and that the only thing holding back conventional domestic gear is that insufficient attention is paid to enabling high volumes to be reproduced cleanly. IMO, there should be a continuum of equipment that essentially differs only in the maximum sound levels that be achieved.

Frank
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Old 7th February 2013, 03:35 AM   #34348
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Let's be realistic, the vast majority of people have migrated to video, and tend to think of their audio as a less important than decades ago.
This happened with American car radios, when they first went solid state, and when people went from their radio listening to TV watching, in the USA, about 1950.
This doesn't mean that quality high fi listening and design is not still going on today. It is just a much smaller group of enthusiastic supporters, than it used to be.
I was contacted today with a fellow engineer, and we are going to 'swap' engineering projects, in order for both of us to be able to improve our mutual hi fi systems. It will take a bit of work on both our parts, but I a pretty sure that it will be worth it. Hi end design is not dead, it's just not here on this website. '-)
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Old 7th February 2013, 03:41 AM   #34349
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Fas42, one of the major problem is PA is live performance. Means the sound engineer is mixing in real time, while the same 3mn had been mixed during hours with automated consoles when you listen to CD.
Second, musicians, don't often offer a volume coherency between each others during live shows, both because the scene is large and they do not hear themselves, and because they sometimes need high volume to get their sounds (saturated guitars with sustain).
More, musicians want high levels of feedback and this destroy awfully the original sound, so near from Larsen.
Last, each night in a different place, both the PA team and the musicians don't have enough time to take their marks and make enough rehearsals.

There is some very good live performances from time to time, where both the PA is very good and the musicians grooving, you can consider those nights like miracles.
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Old 7th February 2013, 03:46 AM   #34350
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Finally, you make sense, Esperado. I have heard both bad and good sound from the same PA, and it is often bad luck with the acoustics at a particular venue.
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