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Old 2nd January 2013, 12:34 AM   #32111
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Thanks, Christophe ... and a happy new year to you too!

Cheers,
Frank
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Old 2nd January 2013, 12:39 AM   #32112
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Very simple: neutralise the love of money ...
Don't you really mean the addiction to fiat money Frank? I love money and don't consider that any kind of problem
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Old 2nd January 2013, 12:46 AM   #32113
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And there is the hazard of conflating accuracy and "good sound". Floyd Toole pretty conclusively proved that they are not synonymous, with audiences preferring a rolled off top. Good sound has no bounds or clear target. In fact it could be argued that it can be influenced by aspects that have zero affect on sound. However customers buy "good sound" and like to be told its more accurate.
And my suspicion is that the top end that was rolled off in these experiments had a fair bit of nasty low level distortion mixed in. The hardest to eradicate, and the most telling in the battle for "good" sound ...

There is a clear target: for the sound to convey the impact and experience of the real thing. Unfortunately, high level, in volume terms, sound with an excess of distortion is intolerable, classic PA sound is what you get in this particular corner.

What is needed is sound which can run at PA levels, minus the nastiness that is normally part and parcel of that sort of setup ...

Frank
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Old 2nd January 2013, 12:57 AM   #32114
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Don't you really mean the addiction to fiat money Frank? I love money and don't consider that any kind of problem
Even worse is ferrari money ...

No, I tend to see it as a money issue, real or otherwise. Every "poor" country suffers because the few within, smarter, more cunning than the rest, perceives everything as an opportunity, to concentrate that country's wealth around himself and his family. To everyone else's disadvantage ... and the "evil" begins, and continues, frequently until the country collapses into chaos ....

Frank
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:06 AM   #32115
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Don't you really mean the addiction to fiat money Frank? I love money and don't consider that any kind of problem
Amen to that! But we're veering into politics here.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:06 AM   #32116
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Yeah we have Ferrari money here too, not to mention Lamborghini and Maserati money... Perhaps you didn't read what I wrote - I'm not saying its not a money issue, it most certainly is. But not the love of money, rather the compulsive need of it.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:08 AM   #32117
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Amen to that! But we're veering into politics here.
Money has always historically been economics, the politicization of it is exactly the problem Frank is talking about
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:46 AM   #32118
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Money has always historically been economics, the politicization of it is exactly the problem Frank is talking about
I was at a play in Harvard Square some ten or so years ago and this very tall person was sitting next to me. It turned out it was Jonn Kenneth Galbraith. I was at a loss for any pithy questions.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:50 AM   #32119
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And my suspicion is that the top end that was rolled off in these experiments had a fair bit of nasty low level distortion mixed in. The hardest to eradicate, and the most telling in the battle for "good" sound ...

There is a clear target: for the sound to convey the impact and experience of the real thing. Unfortunately, high level, in volume terms, sound with an excess of distortion is intolerable, classic PA sound is what you get in this particular corner.

What is needed is sound which can run at PA levels, minus the nastiness that is normally part and parcel of that sort of setup ...

Frank
This is old stuff and its possible the specifics have changed. Here is the original source: AES E-Library Subjective Measurements of Loudspeaker Sound Quality and Listener Performance The larger point still is that accuracy and "good sound" are not synonymous. Many highly rated speakers are pretty poor in many measurements. Technically perfect speakers don't necessarily review well.

A friend of mine in the hearing aid industry has explained to me that many experienced listeners actually reconstruct what they think they are hearing. A big notch in hearing (not uncommon in classical musicians) doesn't change what they perceive. I believe this has even been demonstrated with PET scans of brain activity. Learning these types of things leaves me feeling like I'm standing on quicksand.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 02:07 AM   #32120
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1Audio,
Perhaps part of the problem is what is the definition of accurate sound to those original test? If it is only in the frequency domain perhaps this is the problem, it was not truly accurate but measured as such in a steady state sense. Now if we look closer as fas42 is alluding to we may find that there were other aspects of the sound that were not correct, meaning that there were distortion modes in the reproduced sound. When I am listening to live music with these same high frequencies that we are talking about here, the very top of the cymbals or the blat of a horn I don't perceive that as distorted and don't want to go running from the room. But play that same passage back over many loudspeakers and it won't be long before I am feeling ear fatigue, what is that about? Something in the reproduction is not matching the original sound, there is a distortion mechanism at work there. I say that you need to look at a waterfall plot of the device in question and you will see these problems, they are resonant problems in the upper frequencies and also the decay times are just not correct. If you only look at the steady state of the device you will never see these problems in a frequency response curve.
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