Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th December 2012, 08:44 AM   #31111
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Cooktown, Oz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
I don't understand why do you insist on this poor 4558.
Christophe, as I said earlier, I chose 4558 instead of 5532, LM4562, AD797 & even more supa dupa OPAs for vee...ery careful reasons.

Based on its performance in the Quan test, I expect it to be sufficiently close to Blowtorch to give the true golden pinnae a challenge but still result in a conclusive result.

I may be wrong. We might get a NULL result even with the best ears in the business. But I don't think so.

For other JC designs, I would put money on a NULL result but Blowtorch is special.

What the third contender in the ABC test has to remain secret. In fact, there is a chance we might just put Blowtorch on all three but that's pretty unlikely.

BTW, the surest way to make a fool of yourself in a Blind Test is to attempt to guess what you're listening to. You have to trust your ears and nothing else. True golden pinnae will confirm this.

Quote:
I think this is the real difficult test, where after someone know that the 2 sources are different, then he has to pick which one he thinks is the best. And 1.7V/us in a preamp is more than enough to impress people. Here people will learn the effect of "nice" distortion and its spectrum.

People will learn what is important for the majority. And worse, people will learn that some people really have no idea of what they really want
Jay, don't forget this is an ABC, not an ABX test. There may be 3 different sources. Or all 3 might be the same.

Also you'll be surprised at how perceptive 'common' people are when they can choose their own music and are not stressed. In nearly 2 decades of conducting Blind Listening Tests, one of the most fascinating things to me, is that 'common' people (who are not deaf), 'like' the same things that the best recording engineers 'like', though they will use different language to describe why.

Last edited by kgrlee; 8th December 2012 at 09:02 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 08:56 AM   #31112
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
And 1.7V/us in a preamp is more than enough to impress people.
It is not about 'to impress', but about IM distortion.
1.7V is enough in a stage where *no feedback loop*.
An OPA is closed loop system.

On my experience, even 25V/µs in a huge gain huge feedback loop is not enough for perfect fluidity of little details on attacks. You can listen the difference on good horns speakers.
And more you have feedback, more you need fast slew rate.

You where on the SSA thread ? Lot of people reports positive listening: free and fluid, with lot of details ? It is correlated with its slew rate.
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:02 AM   #31113
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Christophe, as I said earlier, I chose 4558 instead of 5532, LM4562, AD797 & even more supa dupa OPAs for vee...ery careful reasons.
I think it is a good idea to choose 4558 than the other better opamps, so some engineers who do not believe in cable differences will be able to hear the differences also, then the trap is to make them choose the 4558

If the opamp have been AD8xx they will tell you that indeed AD8xx is better than Blowtorch. But when it is 4558, that is NEWS.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:17 AM   #31114
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
You have to trust your ears and nothing else.
That is what i did .(i'm pretty old, now, with a limited bandwitch, so, i can't speak for younger any more).
I usually make my opinion on well know sources, listened in various places. Some of my own recordings, in witch i know each track included in the mix (listened in solo). previously listened in the original studio, in the mastering room, in the record company auditorium, at home, across various headphones, in my car etc...
As i said, i'm not to much involved by "blind tests', as i'm not impressed by nothing any more. Neither the price, neither the notoriety of the designer, neither my own work. I'm not impressed, as well, by impressive systems witch enhance or prettify things (i hate them).
When i'm about a decision to be made on choosing some new device, i use to add in my listening tests tracks from direct film dialogs with ambiances, where is no musical involvements.
And, usually, i'm not so satisfied by what i ear. More often disappointed by 6 stars outpriced audiophile amplifiers than *good* average ones. :-)
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:19 AM   #31115
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
one of the most fascinating things to me, is that 'common' people (who are not deaf), 'like' the same things that the best recording engineers 'like', though they will use different language to describe why.
I think what makes those recording engineers "best" is because they like or know what the majority like (I don't like blue, but if I have to design a certain product for the mature crowd I think I will choose blue because I think the majority likes blue).

"YOU"

You can make your own amp and say it is the best.
The THD is 0.000000001%.
But nobody wants your amp.
Coz you think everyone else love distortion.
You live in your own world.
It's okay if you listen to your amp 7 hours a day.
It's your (high class) TASTE.
But the fact is you listen to it 1 hour or less a week.
You think you are smarter than you really are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:26 AM   #31116
diyAudio Member
 
abraxalito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hangzhou - Marco Polo's 'most beautiful city'. 700yrs is a long time though...
Blog Entries: 84
Send a message via MSN to abraxalito Send a message via Yahoo to abraxalito Send a message via Skype™ to abraxalito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
This gave me into an abyss of confusion. Very talented people are generally very poor.
How did you measure a person's degree of 'poorness' in arriving at that statement? Lang Lang is a very talented pianist, I don't see any signs of 'poorness' there just to give one counterexample but there are plenty of others I can think of in sports personalities and actors who're not short of a bob or two.
__________________
The great audio capacitor myth : 'There's such a thing as too many PSU caps'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:28 AM   #31117
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
so some engineers who do not believe in cable differences will be able to hear the differences also, then the trap is to make them choose the 4558
It is boring, Jay.
Cables CAN make a difference, and i can *measure* what you hear. Again, it is not due to any magic or material, it is due to their interaction with the devices they connect, and due to their lumped elements.
Do-you believe sound engineers are deaf ? I'm old, but i can compensate with experience. (As John said too). I know *what* to listen to, after all a life on it.
Like any old Formula 1 or rally champion will beat any young good average driver with hundred better reflexes than him on a road race.
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:35 AM   #31118
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
It is not about 'to impress', but about IM distortion. 1.7V is enough in a stage where *no feedback loop*.
An OPA is closed loop system.
I mean, it will be interesting to see which one they will choose as the "best". Here you can see "tastes" and "preferences". Some will be "impressed" by soundstage, some will be impressed by sonic, some will be impressed by pseudo bass, some will be impressed by sweet vocals, etc...

The blind test can not only set up to "trap" audiophools but also to trap "scientists".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
You where on the SSA thread ? Lot of people reports positive listening: free and fluid, with lot of details ? It is correlated with its slew rate.
Yes, I guess so. Do high slew rate amps always have flat phase response? Because some amps which I think is not CFB, not high slew rate, but with flat phase response sound good too.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:36 AM   #31119
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Also you'll be surprised at how perceptive 'common' people are when they can choose their own music and are not stressed. In nearly 2 decades of conducting Blind Listening Tests, one of the most fascinating things to me, is that 'common' people (who are not deaf), 'like' the same things that the best recording engineers 'like', though they will use different language to describe why.
My guess is that they like "bigness" of sound, just like the real thing, where the intensity and complexity easily washes over you, it's effortless to soak it up.

A lot of hifi sound is "smaller" than the listener, which is ridiculous, it should be so much larger than the audience listening ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th December 2012, 09:37 AM   #31120
Jay is offline Jay  Indonesia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Jakarta
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Do-you believe sound engineers are deaf ?
From my experience, sound engineers have the best ears.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:54 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2