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Old 5th December 2012, 09:08 PM   #30881
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
... but I haven't gotten any takers as of yet. ... Of course, anybody can take just about any line amp and compare it to another line amp and get a NULL result. Unfortunately, I must insist on an 'open' test, at least a defined A or B, is necessary to hear any difference. Still, A and B could be randomly selected, even by computer, it is just knowing that A is always A, and B is always B when making the comparison, that is important to me.
my italics.

JC, I suggested John Atkinson & the Dynamic Duo as neutral 3rd parties and described an ABC test earlier in this thread, inviting you to enter Blowtorch as a contender. Your insistence that "A is always A etc" is of course, fundamental to this test.

Can you run through the details again just to make sure there is nothing that might hide the unique strengths of Blowtorch? The other 2 presentations will remain secret until after all listeners have been tested but are likely to include an evil 4558 and possibly a repeat of one of the above.

The results will of course be published in Stereophile and other media.

Can you make a firm commitment to this test in plain English so all of us will be in no doubt that you will do your best to facilitate this?

Don't want any retractions at the last minute as with the Hirata & Quan tests. The logistics are non-trivial.

If you feel John At, Stan & JV are insufficiently neutral, please suggest alternatives but these will have to be vetted and I'd like SL & JV to stand in as observers and comment too if they are unacceptable to supervise the test. Everyone involved must be happy all products have the best chance of performing at their best. I would very much like JA to be one of the listeners as he belongs to a VERY select group with proven golden pinnae.

I chose Blowtorch out of all your superb designs as IMHO, it has the best chance of a NOT getting a NULL result so will further enhance your exalted reputation.

It's not the neutral 3rd parties that decide one is 'better' than the other. Its the results of the tests. ABC rather than ABX or AB cos its easier to get statistical significance fast from limited tests and also to weed out the pseudo Golden Pinnae.

Last edited by kgrlee; 5th December 2012 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 09:45 PM   #30882
pooge is offline pooge  United States
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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
Not so sure: We had tried this joke near a well known reviewer, during the listening session with some real other preamps.
The wire was not the winner, according to his notes :-)
We were not in so good relationship with him, after having revealed the trickery :-)
I can see where the wire could be at fault if it did not buffer the output impedance of the volume control feeding a power amp directly.
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:06 PM   #30883
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
I'm not like most of IT guy. I always try to make a system that will run smoothly even when I'm not there anymore. But sometimes I think, why not just create one that is so complicated that no one will be able to learn anything from the code.
Well, you could always learn, or use, APL ...

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Old 5th December 2012, 10:22 PM   #30884
KSTR is offline KSTR  Germany
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When it comes to write-only code, nothing beats fully optimized FORTH code, I'd say...
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Old 5th December 2012, 10:23 PM   #30885
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
John, as i said, i compare my preamps with a strait wire. it would be a nonsense to compare blue and green. Really, i do not need any blind procedure, i'm looking for trouble, not for pride. Of course this is possible when no added hiss, but i'm dedicated with digital. I'm not listening for *sound quality*, I'im listening to differences. If any, i try something else. As is said, i'm not able to hear noticeable difference between my preamp and a wire, why i should look for something else ?
Christophe, the trouble with comparisons is that the result is highly dependent on the maximum level of performance of the system in its current status. Not talking about about you've achieved personally, but if someone's setup is only capable of say, 80% of its potentional at that moment then switching between 2 alternatives may be practically inaudible; whereas, if running at 98% then the differences will be instantly obvious.

I deliberately use very "poor" recordings when doing A vs. B comparisons: the intensity of highlighting of variations then achieved makes the job so much easier ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 5th December 2012 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:22 PM   #30886
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Originally Posted by pooge View Post
I can see where the wire could be at fault if it did not buffer the output impedance of the volume control feeding a power amp directly.
It was not the case, of course. We where connecting directly the low impedance source to the high impedance input of the amps with short wires. Buttons in the preamp where fake (a real preamp with input and outputs disconnected, then input cabled directly to outputs.

In fact, people can prefer added distortions, specially pair ones, or non linearities witch can compensate source or loudspeakers lacks. That is all the question about "Sounding best".
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:31 PM   #30887
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Not talking about about you've achieved personally, but if someone's setup is only capable of say, 80% of its potentional at that moment then switching between 2 alternatives may be practically inaudible; whereas, if running at 98% then the differences will be instantly obvious.
In the Blind ABC test that JC has asked for takers (at least I hope he doesn't welsh out again like his previous challenges) JC will be personally responsible for setting Blowtorch up with all the ancillaries provided by him lest there is any imputation that evil disbelievers might not use the correct mains lead etc. and so reduce the impact of its scintillating performance. So we may assume that the resulting system will be running at least at 98%, if not 102%.

But when the lights are dimmed, curtain drawn or whatever mechanism to make the test Blind is engaged, he must allow the Dynamic Duo to substitute the evil 4558 or equivalent for Blowtorch without being aware of which is A, B or C.

Of course, within a 'test', ie set of multiple comparisons under the control of the victim', A B & C will remain as they were first allocated. The listener must always be be clearly aware of whether he is listening to A, B or C.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:33 PM   #30888
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Kgrlee, this gets tedious and boring. I am NOT going to put my personal preamp into some test that I do not control. I do MY controls here at home. Keep off my back, please.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:35 PM   #30889
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
Christophe, the trouble with comparisons is that the result is highly dependent on the maximum level of performance of the system in its current status.
I believe than, when we ear at evidence the sound deterioration produced by a 2N3052 or a TL7202, the sources are good enough in dynamic and bandwidth for you can believe that, if you find an operational amplifier giving near no difference with a wire, it is good enough to listen to this source ? All we care is how dynamic, sound stage, separation, linearity, little details, harshness or distortion are modified...

That's my point, as a sound engineer wanted no deterioration or amelioration of any original message, but i understand why some people can prefer trasfos, or tubes, cleaning the messages for a more agreeable reproduction.
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Last edited by Esperado; 5th December 2012 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 5th December 2012, 11:43 PM   #30890
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Of course, within a 'test', ie set of multiple comparisons under the control of the victim', A B & C will remain as they were first allocated. The listener must always be be clearly aware of whether he is listening to A, B or C.
Yes, there are several aspects that need to part of the situation to make it fair to the 'victim':

* Switching must be under the control of the subject, and he must be able to listen for as long as he requires to a particular variation
* Source material must approved, or selected by the subject
* Most importantly, he must be able to state whether the playback standard is sufficiently high in the test configuration, and this be accepted a valid reason for not continuing. In other words, if the quality of playback is only 80% at best in the test environment, then all bets are off ...

IMO ...

Frank
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