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Old 29th November 2012, 02:57 PM   #30381
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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OK, now we are making progress again. You are saying that the delay is frequency-dependent (agreed), may be signal level dependent (agreed in principle but I would like to see the numbers as I doubt it is significant) and may depend on acoustic coupling from the other channel (agreed in principle but even less likely to be significant?).
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:05 PM   #30382
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I like serious cables.
I like to stay serious about cables.
"I tend to prefer the ones witch conduct electricity" Peter Walker.
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:28 PM   #30383
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A quick way to "test" this is to switch your attention entirely to something else
That is exactly the way i proceed.
The best mastering guy, in Paris, was always leaving the room, after a tune was equalized and compressed for the grooving process, letting-you alone to listen at it before the burning.
I asked why he did that: "Just to listen to it from the next door, reading some paper, to make sure the balance is OK from there."
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:28 PM   #30384
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
OK, now we are making progress again. You are saying that the delay is frequency-dependent (agreed), may be signal level dependent (agreed in principle but I would like to see the numbers as I doubt it is significant) and may depend on acoustic coupling from the other channel (agreed in principle but even less likely to be significant?).
No acoustic coupling.

What I am saying is that any delay of part of the frequency content of a stereophonic signal can shift the perceived image. It requires a central image in the field upon which a human can reference to because head positioning uncertainties will swamp un-referenced positions.

For a monophonic presentation, time delay of part of the spectra can result in a depth change of that part, but never a side shift.


Discussion of audibility requires understanding audibility. Welcome to my world. Please, pull up a seat and stay a while..

edit: my world being one in which I had a long and steep learning curve as well..

cheers, jn

btw, that is one big problem I have found with 11 band eq's...If you dont get both channels exactly symmetrical, it is easy to find that the sibalance of a female vocal is shifted to one side of the fundamental..a disembodiment so to speak..

ps. Please read my content w/rt to hearing several times prior to responding. I've been quite clear in the bulk of my posts, and am spending a lot of effort duplicating verbage.

Last edited by jneutron; 29th November 2012 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:36 PM   #30385
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Fux, now we know what is going on in cables! '-) (and equations)
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:38 PM   #30386
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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We are talking of differential delay, not delay. The delay will be greater for lower frequency signals, but there it will presumably do less harm.

I thought your world is large superconducting magnets?
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:52 PM   #30387
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We are talking of differential delay, not delay.
We are talking first about two types of differential delays.

1. Delay within the same channel, but dependent on frequency due to the line to load mismatch and wildly varying load impedance vs frequency.

2. Delay in both channels of a part of the spectra uncorrelated to a common signal which is presenting as at center of soundfield. For example, a centrally positioned bassist and a voilin shifted to the right by way of temporal and intensity differentials.

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The delay will be greater for lower frequency signals, but there it will presumably do less harm.
I agree that we are less sensitive to it at low frequencies. Why do you believe the delay is more for low frequency audio? Not all speaker impedance curves peak at bass.
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I thought your world is large superconducting magnets?
Work. (not just large ones however)

But that is not my entire world. Besides, I was referring to a world requiring a learning curve..

jn
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:53 PM   #30388
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Fux, now we know what is going on in cables! '-) (and equations)
Sigh..I saw that typo too late...

I was surprised it made it past the word robo-police.
jn
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Old 29th November 2012, 03:54 PM   #30389
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DF96, I am still with you on this delay thing, UNTIL it is shown to me that TINY time delay differences can be detected by humans either with frequency or differentially. Also, it should be clearly stated, by example, how much a time delay can be generated by a typical passive cable with frequency. Without real numbers, this is just speculation, not fact.
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Old 29th November 2012, 04:03 PM   #30390
jcx is offline jcx  United States
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Moulton does introduce inter-channel delay - to aid "panning" but lowest delay mentioned is 100us:

Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Phantom Image

a older summary paper on lateraliztion - suggests differential time sensitivity goes away above ~ 1.5 kHz

http://web.mit.edu/hst.723/www/Theme...Grantham95.pdf

I would like to see the electrical cable/loudspeaker Z interaction numbers showing this 10us group delay modulation in the electrical domain - below 1.5kHz

you certainly can get (and measure) Doppler modulation with large cone excursion

Last edited by jcx; 29th November 2012 at 04:15 PM.
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