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Old 8th November 2012, 01:58 PM   #29091
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
There was a time, long ago, when this was nearly the case and mfr of speakers used that as an arguemnt as why buy their speakers -- its the same one the producer used during mix-down. The hayday of JBL comes to mind.

Often, today, small speakers with limited bass are used to mix the music... is it any wonder that bass is more balanced with the rest of the range and thus liked when listening to similar small, limited bass speakers at home? Its more like the speaker which was used to make the recording.

Fortunately, there are still a few studios using "full" range speakers built flush into the walls -- WestLake comes to mind. (yes, console refection had to be dealt with... thus, the small close monitor). These recordings will sound best/balanced on full range home systems.

For the Final mix from the best studio recorders use both large and small speaker systems and sometimes a separate listening room so the whole gang can comment on the mix at same time.

Last edited by RNMarsh; 8th November 2012 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 8th November 2012, 02:50 PM   #29092
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Often, today, small speakers with limited bass are used to mix the music...
I don't know how rapers are working in their home studios, nowadays, (not in an appropriate way, if i believe what i'm listening :-).
We used too small poor speakers, like Auratone. But not for mixing, just to verify if basses and high trebles were accurately mixed for they don't disappeared on a limited loudspeaker for some reasons like too much low frequencies components on basses, or too much treble on cymbals...
If the balance was quite ok on Auratone too, we where sure our mixes was well balanced on a tonal point of view.
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Old 8th November 2012, 04:27 PM   #29093
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
The example being discussed was 4 watts of acoustic power travelling through 1 square inch of air. The spl, from Tom, was 158.

That is certainly not what I would consider a "practical audio case".
But it is very practical approach that I use designing audio gear: stretch something, measure, then extrapolate to the real life. Like push current, frequency, listen through 10 identical stages instead of one, and so on. Some things that are audible like asymmetrical slew limitations, phase intermodulations, other kinds of dynamic distortions, and so on, are hard to measure in real conditions, but when stretched they can be understood and minimized better.
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Old 8th November 2012, 05:09 PM   #29094
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Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
But it is very practical approach that I use designing audio gear: stretch something, measure, then extrapolate to the real life. Like push current, frequency, listen through 10 identical stages instead of one, and so on. Some things that are audible like asymmetrical slew limitations, phase intermodulations, other kinds of dynamic distortions, and so on, are hard to measure in real conditions, but when stretched they can be understood and minimized better.
We are in complete agreement.

jn
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:30 PM   #29095
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
... for myself, if the bass is recorded and it goes down below a small speakers ability, I dont want that small speaker.
Just another reminder that we are talking about Blind Listening Tests. My outrageous contention is that even you, Mr. Marsh, might pick certain small speakers over your present huge system in a Blind Listening Test.

This can't be tested this millenium unless you fund replicating the Listening Room and Blind Listening Setup I had at Wharfedale. Probably not far off 100k GBP as the Listening Room has to be good and there's the gear to run it including the 1000W amp which is now Unobtainium.

Your favoured speaker system needs to be manageable by 2 people with the aid of a trolley and must fit through a standard interior door without too many bangs and bumps to give the game away. I'm prepared to go a long way to meet Golden Pinnae provisions but draw the line at an O2 free listening room

A simpler solution might be the automated Speaker Mover that Floyd commissioned from bcarso for Harman that I'm now told was never built.

Programme material. Entirely your choice of music but must include at least one of simple instrumental, complex instrumental, single voice (may have instrumental accompaniment), complex voice+instrumental. Any genre you like. I will insist you spend at least 30min listening but you can take up to 1/2 day if you wish. It must be music YOU enjoy and listen to but you are encouraged to use any of your own recordings especially if you have some idea of what the real thing was like.

However, if you listen to Dead White Men's Music, I'll put in a plea that you consider some of Aaron Heller's recordings on the link I posted. The microphone used has the most extended velocity LF of any from the 20th century. Please download VVMic and try these to select the stereo patterns you prefer. I guarantee you will not be disappointed even if the rest of my ramblings are issuing from the wrong orifice. But you don't have to use these if Beethoven, Stravinsky et al are not your thing so please listen to them beforehand on your present favourite system. You dun like, you dun use.

No test signals, sweeps, pink noise etc though these can be used AFTER you've completed the test.

It's an ABC test and I'll break protocol to warn you I might be evil enough to make 2 of the presentations the same. I want something out of this too and that's some info as to whether you are deaf.
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Old 8th November 2012, 06:51 PM   #29096
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Just another reminder that we are talking about Blind Listening Tests. My outrageous contention is that even you, Mr. Marsh, might pick certain small speakers over your present huge system in a Blind Listening Test.

This can't be tested this millenium unless you fund replicating the Listening Room and Blind Listening Setup I had at Wharfedale. Probably not far off 100k GBP as the Listening Room has to be good and there's the gear to run it including the 1000W amp which is now Unobtainium.

Your favoured speaker system needs to be manageable by 2 people with the aid of a trolley and must fit through a standard interior door without too many bangs and bumps to give the game away. I'm prepared to go a long way to meet Golden Pinnae provisions but draw the line at an O2 free listening room

A simpler solution might be the automated Speaker Mover that Floyd commissioned from bcarso for Harman that I'm now told was never built.

Programme material. Entirely your choice of music but must include at least one of simple instrumental, complex instrumental, single voice (may have instrumental accompaniment), complex voice+instrumental. Any genre you like. I will insist you spend at least 30min listening but you can take up to 1/2 day if you wish. It must be music YOU enjoy and listen to but you are encouraged to use any of your own recordings especially if you have some idea of what the real thing was like.

However, if you listen to Dead White Men's Music, I'll put in a plea that you consider some of Aaron Heller's recordings on the link I posted. The microphone used has the most extended velocity LF of any from the 20th century. Please download VVMic and try these to select the stereo patterns you prefer. I guarantee you will not be disappointed even if the rest of my ramblings are issuing from the wrong orifice. But you don't have to use these if Beethoven, Stravinsky et al are not your thing so please listen to them beforehand on your present favourite system. You dun like, you dun use.

No test signals, sweeps, pink noise etc though these can be used AFTER you've completed the test.

It's an ABC test and I'll break protocol to warn you I might be evil enough to make 2 of the presentations the same. I want something out of this too and that's some info as to whether you are deaf.
The speaker mover was built and is quite operational indeed. What was not completed was my fancy computer-controlled switching system to allow preset level adjustments, Vishay resistors, AD797 + paralleled AD811, mercury-wetted reed relays, fade-up/fade-down with thereafter-bypassed optocouplers, during which time masking noise was produced to make sure cues about bumps and grinds were inaudible.

I'll have to ask Sean what they are using instead of the fancy stuff. Probably some bog-standard but functionally similar system from Audio Authority.

Brad
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:23 PM   #29097
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Your favoured speaker system needs to be manageable by 2 people with the aid of a trolley and must fit through a standard interior door without too many bangs and bumps to give the game away. I'm prepared to go a long way to meet Golden Pinnae provisions but draw the line at an O2 free listening room
Why would I need to move my subwoofer? I don't move my fireplace as well. It belongs to the living room, as well as my subwoofer.

I don't hear throat distortions, by the way.
However, on higher power I hear distortions caused by motors and cones, so when sofas shake sometimes I hear some sound from that hole. It is bad, so the next time I have a chance to open the floor I will make longer waveguide and use drivers with bigger cones.
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:33 PM   #29098
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Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post

The recordings were made with the closest approach to a perfect mike [2] in this and the previous millenium.
I'm curious, what is the "the closest approach to a perfect mike" ?
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Old 8th November 2012, 07:41 PM   #29099
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Originally Posted by fireworks View Post
I'm curious, what is the "the closest approach to a perfect mike" ?
I suppose the thinnest diaphragm and the biggest it's size for the given highest frequency.


By the way, I got an envelope today from Israel.

Here is the picture attached. Let's see what I can do with them...
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Old 9th November 2012, 12:11 AM   #29100
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Sorry, guys, I'm just catching up.

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Originally Posted by Esperado View Post
..........
About music, each year was the birth of a new sound, rock'nroll, electric blues, country music, ouest coast, Tamla Motown,, Hard rock, heavy metal, jazz rock Funk, reggae etc. Then after the disco years, nothing new....
Ha ha, Esperado, are you really THAT old?

Let me see if I get it right. After the disco years came ...

Punk
New romantic
New Wave
NDW (Neue Deutsche Welle)
Dark Wave
Hip Hop
Electro
House / Acid house / Deep house / Hip-house / Hard house
Techno
Gabber
Jungle
Drum 'n' bass / Techstep / Dubstep
Speed metal / Trash metal
Industrial

Some styles died off, some went thru several permutations and are alive and well. What was underground at the end of the 80's is now mainstream.
Did I miss anything? I stopped actively spinning records at the turn of the century, so I might be a bit off.
Still have around 3k 12", and two 1200's, though, and can give kids with their laptops run for their money, if needed ...

Best,

P.S. In my opinion, the birth of new styles coincided with the new musical instruments hitting the market back then. After the widespread of samplers it sort of went downhill.
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