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Old 6th November 2012, 04:47 AM   #28961
jcx is online now jcx  United States
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people hire consultants hoping the consultant knows more than the client

"successful" consulting doesn't impress as a proof of competence - one could just be a very good salesman or very selective of clients

surviving design reviews in front of panels with 100+ man years of domain specific engineering experience, clearing independent test groups/agency certifications, history of product in the market without problems/returns gives me more confidence

Last edited by jcx; 6th November 2012 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:52 AM   #28962
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
...creating sound that one wants to keep listening to
Perfect definition, where "Keep" is the important word.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:59 AM   #28963
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About "blind" as well as "consultant", i was very amused while i was present to a "Guru seller" demonstration to one client in his shop. Not a word to influence-him. Just he made his body dancing imperceptibly when the equipment he wanted to sell was playing.
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Old 6th November 2012, 05:08 AM   #28964
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Can you summarize please in short what did you say? How is it related to my remark?
Only IMHE, speakers which "fool imagination as if it sounds real" as judged by people who are not deaf are also 'nice' speakers as judged by the general public ... but only in Blind Listening Tests.

The best ears in the business (and I have tested some of the best) are just as prejudiced as the most rabid Golden Pinnae reviewer. The difference is their consistency in Blind Listening Tests.

Like Christophe, I don't trust my own sighted opinions .. especially on my own designs. But I DO trust my blind choices.

Frank, I'm not sure about your $20 speaker but I can confirm your experience with $20,000 ones.

And I can vouch for your "can't get any better" criteria. In a successful Blind Listening Test, you know when someone really 'likes', thinks its 'real', 'accurate' bla bla when his written comments go on about the music instead of bass, treble, clarity bla bla

You don't need multiple 15" bass units to create this suspension of belief. You usually do need a good 1000W/channel amp though.

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Golden Pinnae unfortunately, except in ultra high end, are not a road to commercial success. Neither are blind consumer preferences. Certainly not like big bass and in your face presence.
Actually another surprising finding is that the most important performance factor in Blind Listening Tests is accurate midrange especially on voices. This holds for headbanging pop teenager as much as the guy who insists on using only his own recordings made with his own mikes. Believable voices are essential for suspension of belief. Hyped speakers do badly in Blind Listening Tests.

But my most devastating musical experiences have often not relied on supa dupa gear. I heard Rubinstein's 90th birthday concert on a portable radio. This was the concert of which Murray Perahia said he would never be able to play like that if he reached 100.

Those of us who work or have worked in the audio industry, and are sometimes disillusioned by the hype, need to remember that we, in our small way, support such priceless experiences.

Last edited by kgrlee; 6th November 2012 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 05:34 AM   #28965
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.. especially on my own designs.
While we can enjoy any new bought equipment, appreciating each of its qualities during weeks, we listen to our work in a very negative way, tracking with fear the littlest defect...
Witch sound engineer can listen with pleasure his own mixes, with musician his own records ? Witch writer can read his own books ?
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Old 6th November 2012, 05:35 AM   #28966
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Frank, I'm not sure about your $20 speaker but I can confirm your experience with $20,000 ones.
My current setup is/was a "proof of concept" of some ideas: a "junk" system to see how far one can push things. It's getting a bit long in the tooth now, all the electro's are well and truly past their "Use By" dates. And the speakers are of that $20 variety ...

But, when fully warmed up, and all the cylinders are firing then it is/was capable of delivering the "big" sound. More than anything else it's shown that nothing new has to be invented, it's all about refinement of what's already out there ...

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You don't need multiple 15" bass units to create this suspension of belief. You do need a good 1000W/channel amp though.
Sorry, I don't get this one! Yes, if you want high quality, very low bass then very powerful amps are the only way to go. But everywhere else in the spectrum good engineering will get the results from very modest powers, IME.

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Believable voices are essential for suspension of belief.
Agree 100%. I have some "killer" recordings, as in "badly recorded" vocals, for checking progress made ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 6th November 2012 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 06:17 AM   #28967
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Only IMHE, speakers which "fool imagination as if it sounds real" as judged by people who are not deaf are also 'nice' speakers as judged by the general public ... but only in Blind Listening Tests.
Thanks; that means you did not understand me. What I mean, subconscious reactions that happen before we realize that the sound goes from speakers. When I jump and turn around before realizing that there is no way water is running in my living room during this sunny day. When my father in law insists that somebody was playing piano in my house. When my guest says that he want to live near the creek because he likes how frogs on my backyard are singing. When people during a home concert look outside for the helicopter, when I put a record for Diego for his song; and so on. It is more than a blind test. It is like people waiting when that blind test starts because they hear some conversations behind the curtains thinking that people who suppose to run the test are just talking. I mean such quality when people don't realize that they are being tested and have no clue that they hear sounds from loudspeakers.
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Old 6th November 2012, 07:40 AM   #28968
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Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
I mean such quality when people don't realize that they are being tested and have no clue that they hear sounds from loudspeakers.
Some very nice indicators, Anatoliy ... just curious, how close can you get to the speaker drivers with that illusion being maintained ...?

Thanks,
Frank
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Old 6th November 2012, 08:45 AM   #28969
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Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
Thanks; that means you did not understand me. What I mean, subconscious reactions that happen before we realize that the sound goes from speakers. When I jump and turn around before realizing that there is no way water is running in my living room during this sunny day. When my father in law insists that somebody was playing piano in my house. When my guest says that he want to live near the creek because he likes how frogs on my backyard are singing. When people during a home concert look outside for the helicopter, when I put a record for Diego for his song; and so on. It is more than a blind test. It is like people waiting when that blind test starts because they hear some conversations behind the curtains thinking that people who suppose to run the test are just talking. I mean such quality when people don't realize that they are being tested and have no clue that they hear sounds from loudspeakers.
Well said. It so happens that speakers which do well in Blind Listening Tests are also the ones where I've experienced similar things to what you've described and seen it happened to other people too.

Most of my recordings are of live concerts so have cues of this sort which can startle the listener when he realises they are actually on the recording.

In fact, I'll stick my neck out and claim that speakers that don't do well in my Blind Listening Tests will NOT be able to fool the listener as you have described.
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Old 6th November 2012, 09:29 AM   #28970
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And the speakers are of that $20 variety ...
Frank, I'd be interested in these $20 speakers as that's all I can afford as a beach bum. I'm hoping you won't tell me they were made by Sydney virgins.

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Sorry, I don't get this one! Yes, if you want high quality, very low bass then very powerful amps are the only way to go. But everywhere else in the spectrum good engineering will get the results from very modest powers, IME.
My point was that you don't need response to 27Hz and huge bass capability to have a speaker that draws comments like "beautiful bass lines", "never heard Yo Yo Ma play so well", "Mr Willem is exquisite in Waldstein" or indeed any headbanging Beethoven keyboard stuff.

But small speakers have a sensitivity disadvantage in addition to restricted LF AES E-Library Theoretical and Practical Aspects of Loudspeaker Bass Unit Design

If my 5" mini speakers are going against Mr. Marsh's multiple 15" bass units or Christoff's 99dB/W monsters, in a Blind Listening Test, it needs a bit of help.

Following Ludwig's score means an accurate piano recording played at home at the correct level will clip a 1000W amp even with a speaker of 94dB/W @ 1m sens. It justs clips less often compared to 50W.

BTW, my money is on the 5" mini provided the above conditions are met and the test is truly blind.
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