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Old 6th November 2012, 02:55 AM   #28951
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
On this I disagree the cones are moving sources, the result all falls out of the 1842 analysis.
The cones are oscillating sources of the complex waveform, so t is not so straightforward as oscillating media on moving without acceleration foundation.
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:24 AM   #28952
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Originally Posted by Wavebourn View Post
This questions are obsolete, in terms of high end sound reproduction. The right question is, "does it fool imagination as if it sounds real"? If it sounds like nice speakers, it is already objectionable and requires further R/D work.
Some of my listening panel, the recording engineers and microphone designers who make their own recordings, would object if you accused them of liking only 'nice' speakers.

But if you must know, the speakers considered most 'accurate', 'real' bla bla by those who have some expertise on the matter, the recording engineers, mike designers, musicians and audience from the event ... are also the ones 'liked' by the general public. That's from Blind Listening Tests of course.

Golden Pinnae are more difficult to pin down as their 'likes', 'real' bla bla in Blind Listening Tests are usually (??) much less consistent than the general public. They often have completely opposite opinions on a speaker in a repeat test.

Nasty people might claim the Golden Pinnae are deaf.

But to get back on topic, some (??) of the distortions discussed here are well down the list in terms of audibility & relative nastiness. There are far more important distortions in speakers that need to be addressed if you want to fool the imagination.

Again I refer you to Peter's papers.

Last edited by kgrlee; 6th November 2012 at 03:27 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:27 AM   #28953
jcx is offline jcx  United States
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could you provide a link that works - ie not a temporary or dynamic link?

a actual ref that we can google ourselves is the safest
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:39 AM   #28954
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgrlee View Post
Some of my listening panel, the recording engineers and microphone designers who make their own recordings, would object if you accused them of liking only 'nice' speakers.

But if you must know, the speakers considered most 'accurate', 'real' bla bla by those who have some expertise on the matter, the recording engineers, mike designers, musicians and audience from the event ... are also the ones 'liked' by the general public. That's from Blind Listening Tests of course.

Golden Pinnae are more difficult to pin down as their 'likes', 'real' bla bla in Blind Listening Tests are usually (??) much less consistent than the general public. They often have completely opposite opinions on a speaker in a repeat test.

Nasty people might claim the Golden Pinnae are deaf.

But to get back on topic, some (??) of the distortions discussed here are well down the list in terms of audibility & relative nastiness. There are far more important distortions in speakers that need to be addressed if you want to fool the imagination.

Again I refer you to Peter's papers.
Can you summarize please in short what did you say? How is it related to my remark?
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:54 AM   #28955
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Reminds me to point out here that much of the polarity affects/absolute phase are due to the fact that the ear mech is not symmetrical concerning pressure. It is more sensitive to 'suck out' or neg pressure than positive pressure.
He he, i had added an "absolute" phase reverse button on my preamp. Had no real explanation on this phenomena, obvious on kick drums. Thought it was loudspeaker side, thanks for the light.
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Right, but for moving with speed sources, not for oscillating cones that is the different matter.
When a large band loudspeaker run a very low frequency (under 16hz) at large excursion, i believe it modulate in frequency a medium tone. An awful experience easy to reproduce, just useless because we can do nothing against it :-)
Again, i ask myself how we can enjoy loudspeakers, ... still a big mystery for me.
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Old 6th November 2012, 03:56 AM   #28956
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Default Golden Pinnae

I sat through the presentation at AES on listener preference on headphones. The daunting task of blind a-b's of headphones would put me off of ever wanting to try it. In any case, after watching the presentation I realized that there is a critical difference between making the sound most preferred in blind listening and the sound that will move the headphones off the retailer shelves and into consumers hands. Its the same issue that exists selling TV's. The brightest TV sells the fastest. No amount of education about ISF and color perfection will overcome that reality. The same for the uber-real sound that has become more common in consumer products.

Golden Pinnae unfortunately, except in ultra high end, are not a road to commercial success. Neither are blind consumer preferences. Certainly not like big bass and in your face presence.

Maybe we need to add a switch to audio systems that does what the TV's do; "torch mode" to sell them and "ISF" mode to listen to them.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:13 AM   #28957
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Do-you believe in blind tests of speakers sets, unless realized with an orchestra to compare instant ?
How much enclosures are-we able to compare without to be lost between qualities and defects of each one?
How long each test (Months ?)
And why blind ? Are-we lying to ourselves ?
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:22 AM   #28958
jcx is offline jcx  United States
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Quote:
And why blind ? Are-we lying to ourselves ?
are you sure you are a audio pro?? - believing stereo is "realistic" requires the audio illusion of "phantom position" for just one to start

being human means our brain lies to our conscious all the time

we really aren't very "self aware" when it comes to being able to audit how much our own sensory input is filtered, censored, patched up, overwritten on the way to conscious perception

Last edited by jcx; 6th November 2012 at 04:30 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:29 AM   #28959
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Originally Posted by jcx View Post
are you sure you are a audio pro??
No. But i tried hard to make believe-it to my clients.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
being human means our brain lies to our conscious all the time
we really aren't very "self aware" when it comes to being able to audit how much our own sensory input is filtered, censored, patched up, overwritten on the way to conscious perception
Yes, but that the law at west of the Pecos. I mean, it is only after weeks of work with a set of monitors that i'm able to decide if it makes a "magic room". Looking at them change nothing :-)
I'm very suspicious about the accuracy of my listening.
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Last edited by Esperado; 6th November 2012 at 04:33 AM.
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Old 6th November 2012, 04:44 AM   #28960
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I find it remarkable that people still feel that speakers are the key determinants of SQ; it's all about overall system tune. A $20 speaker driven properly will demolish a $20,000 one driven badly, from the point of view of creating sound that one wants to keep listening to. I've listened to enough uber-expensive, unter-performing loudspeakers hooked up to bling infested paraphenalia to last many lifetimes ...

It's all about getting "big" sound, people who can do this in a straightforward manner know how dramatically different this is from normal hifi, no blind testing or anything else is needed to establish the presence of this quality -- blind Freddie gets it, knows he's on a winner, straightaway ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 6th November 2012 at 04:49 AM. Reason: Wording
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