John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II - Page 2826 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 20th October 2012, 12:53 AM   #28251
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
World can be crazy. When i was working for TV sound tracks in France, professional digital recorders where set at -18db from full bits for 0db reference level.
In the TV channels, the verification services used peak meters and young guys looking at them all day long to ensure that no soundtrack goes louder than +3db.
How to loose the15 best defined dbs of all the sound channel, including emitters. !!!!
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 02:27 AM   #28252
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
The point of making a commercial product that high-end would buy (JC's designs) is that YOU, the designer, cannot ASSUME it will not be used where clipping will not happen. And, nusience tripping is not tolerated by consumer for any reason what so ever. The delay in the response time is to be sure it is a serious and sustained over-drive condition and not just playing the music loud on a few occassional peaks.
How this is done in the design varies and the approach discussed here can be adapted to such market demands. For one-off use with knowledgable people to adjust to individual apps is a different story. Thx - RNM
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 03:14 AM   #28253
diyAudio Member
 
john curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: berkeley ca
Well said, Richard.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 03:19 AM   #28254
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
nusience tripping is not tolerated by consumer for any reason what so ever.
And i would not tolerate it neither when i listen music.
...As well as i do not tolerate clipping.

In an other way i remember that, during the 70s, we designed a consumer level amp with a sensible protection and a light changing its color, and, at this time, customers where very attracted by this protection. Like an extra gadget they loved to demonstrate to their visitors, tuning the volume to the max to fire the protection, as well as magazines wrote rave reviews about that..
.
At the end, i believe that customers can love what you design, if there is a good reason for your design and if you argue about. May-be the 70s custommers were more intelligent, to prefer some rare "nuisance tripping" to a burned amp or destroyed loudspeaker ?

Well an indicator showing that clipping occurs is enough and a good educational thing.
I don't see why some would like to spend a fortune to buy a 0.0000000001% hd amp to play it at 20% distortion.

Delay is not a requirement for a protection, only a design flaw. No tripping is the requirement, yes, as well as very fast protection. My protection idea can respond to that with no inconvenience, period.
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein

Last edited by Esperado; 20th October 2012 at 03:25 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 05:15 AM   #28255
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
I am clarifying the situation about what JC's delay refers and why from hard, practical, in the field comments from consumer, dealers (especially) and reviewers.
- not so much commenting on your particular design or its abilities and capabilities.

Comment on clipping lights. From experience, dealers and consumers dont like them. When they play music, that has high crest factor, they feel they must turn the level down until zero clipping, then the average volume is too low. A lot of the time people are listening to their amps clipping. The others cant afford very high power amps which wont clip and speakers that dont compress and can take the power and too few really high sensitivity speakers to choose from. It doesnt solve the problem for consumers and dealers who have to try and sell lower power amps with typical low sens speakers which people will play at high volume. they would just as soon not know their amps are clipping, especially the dealers, rather than listen at faint average levels on low eff spkers.

Last edited by RNMarsh; 20th October 2012 at 05:28 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 05:24 AM   #28256
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
Since this is about high-end circuits -- JC's -- the best high end approach -- IMO -- is to have amp with enough power that it wont clip at the highest safe listening levels with the speakers of choice in the room size it will be played. And, for sources of a standard output level to never be able to overdrive the power amp into clipping. Then protection is for a truely abnormal condition in which shutdown is warrented. Its a goal. Thx- RNm
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 06:01 AM   #28257
diyAudio Member
 
Johnloudb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
The lights on our amp turn red when the amp clips, this at 0.1 THD, as I recall. Anyway, I didn't like seeing the amp clip now and then during loud dynamic passages, and turned it off. I'm glad it has a disable switch.
__________________
My Website: Hyperacusis, Tinnitus, My Story
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 06:09 AM   #28258
diyAudio Member
 
Wavebourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Send a message via Skype™ to Wavebourn
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Comment on clipping lights. From experience, dealers and consumers dont like them. When they play music, that has high crest factor, they feel they must turn the level down until zero clipping, then the average volume is too low. A lot of the time people are listening to their amps clipping. The others cant afford very high power amps which wont clip and speakers that dont compress and can take the power and too few really high sensitivity speakers to choose from. It doesnt solve the problem for consumers and dealers who have to try and sell lower power amps with typical low sens speakers which people will play at high volume. they would just as soon not know their amps are clipping, especially the dealers, rather than listen at faint average levels on low eff spkers.
Let me respectfully disagree. I give a freedom, a choice to the user, either to ignore the light and listen to compressed on 80W / channel level, or to reduce power below 80W / channel so lights don't flash. Either they choose "Louder", really louder than any other amp that clips on 80W, but much cleaner, or they choose softer, but fair dynamic range reproduction.
__________________
The Devil is not so terrible as his math model is!
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 06:32 AM   #28259
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
Most people would rather have a switch to defeat the lights..... esp annoying to have flashing lights in a darkened room while listening. All these ideas have been seen by dealers and it is usually the dealers who get and give the feedback and that is what I am telling here. Your arguement isnt with me.... its with dealers.
[ You might note the Japanese and Asia brands have dimming on most everything and off for front panel lights.... they have to do this because of dealer/customer feedback.] -RNM
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2012, 06:32 AM   #28260
diyAudio Member
 
Esperado's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: France
I agree with Wavebourn
Consumers and dealers don't like to see a clipping light ? They buy and sell expensive amplifiers, chosen for their so calling low distortion ? Then run them at > 10% peak distortion with 85db/W enclosures ? And some call that high-end stuff ?
__________________
Ultimate Protection and more.The Only Source of Knowledge is experience, everything else is just information” ©A. Einstein
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:47 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2