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Old 1st October 2012, 12:43 AM   #27931
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Right now I found Pink Floyd channel on Pandora radio; listening to it. Some records definitely have content below 40 Hz: kick drum gives nice gut feeling. Even bass guitar that sounds above 40 Hz is soft and nice. Limit reproduction by 70 Hz, and this nice pleasant effects are lost.

It is not about notes. It is about such "pops" as kick drum, pipes, and so on that produce some LF and ILF content adding some realism.
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Last edited by Wavebourn; 1st October 2012 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 1st October 2012, 12:51 AM   #27932
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On the subject of classical music it depends a lot upon the era it comes from.

In the Baroque period the lowest instrument was generally the cello, the "double" bass being added towards the end of this if my memory serves.

Most of the early double basses were of the three string sort anyway that had a lowest note of a.

About this time the pedal board was introduced to the organ, this greatly increasing the power and extension of the bass.

It is true that there is generally not much bass power in classical music as perusal of the spectra of this shows, but in some instances there is quite a bit of extension and power in some movements, such as in the various late nineteenth century organ symphonies, and also the extensive use of percussion that became fashionable in the early twentieth.
As already commented on the sound of eight double basses in a live symphony concert is quite impressive and very difficult to reproduce accurately, the closest I have ever come is the combination of headphones and sub woofer.
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Old 1st October 2012, 01:06 AM   #27933
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In my case, I listen to a lot of Blues since I was a child.... live, in concert and at home. But, I started out as a child at home listening to classical and still get to hear a lot of it. but bass is fundemental to the blues. I stopped counting after 10,000 blues tunes catalogged at my home. So the quality and quantity of the bass is important. Acoustic Double-bass in an orchestra need to be heard over the rest of the players and so have more of them as the symphony size gets larger. But still, there is a sense of weight to the music overall when they are playing with the rest. That weight or heft is missing if you cut the bass at 70Hz. It is noticable to people who know what the difference sounds like. High-Enders are expected to know the difference and strive for more, IMO.

I brought a High-End car into a car sound installer because that bass weight was missing. he heard the sound and said it was the best stock system he ever heard. Oh well. Never mind. Guess I'll go somewhere else.

The High-End isnt a popularity contest. You can cut the top octave and most people wouldnt care.... could cut it more and they might like it better. That isnt what High-End is about. Let's not make excuses for our systems short comings. None of the HiFi systems sound like real live musical instruments being played in my home, anyway. Set your sights high and strive to get it all.
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Last edited by RNMarsh; 1st October 2012 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 1st October 2012, 01:47 AM   #27934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
The High-End isnt a popularity contest. You can cut the top octave and most people wouldnt care.... could cut it more and they might like it better. That isnt what High-End is about. Let's not make excuses for our systems short comings. None of the HiFi systems sound like real live musical instruments being played in my home, anyway. Set your sights high and strive to get it all.
Thx-RNM
Yeah, the "high end" is where it's for me, as in the treble spectrum, . Hardest to get right, and the instant giveaway that the sound is not "real". Typically distorted, so either it's chopped off, muffled by judicious fiddling with cables and such like, or the simplest option: just don't play the music at realistic volumes

HiFi can't sound real, but optimised audio systems can. Again, the fundamental step is to believe it's possible and then steadily work towards the goal ...

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Old 2nd October 2012, 03:04 PM   #27935
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'High end' for me is the effort to eliminate higher order distortions that can give listening fatigue, as well as to attempt to effect a 'you are there' at least for a moment experience with a lot of musical sources. For this, often 'inner details' in the music become apparent, and this can help to make it more realistic sounding. You know, when the applause actually sounds like hands clapping, rather than some sort of 'mush', or you get 'goosebumps' from the performance.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 06:03 PM   #27936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
'High end' for me is the effort to eliminate higher order distortions
Would you kindly demonstrate this by a comparison with another top products, like Halcro e.g.? To show that your higher order harmonics are lower than theirs. Many here would appreciate such indisputable proof, I would say.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 06:33 PM   #27937
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post

I brought a High-End car into a car sound installer because that bass weight was missing. he heard the sound and said it was the best stock system he ever heard. Oh well. Never mind. Guess I'll go somewhere else.
These guys will fix you right up...

ridiculous 24 true bass 10 inch speakers in a Dodge Caravan - YouTube
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Old 2nd October 2012, 07:25 PM   #27938
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:-) As my friend, Ho Lee Chit, would say --- Wouldnt need so many speakers (SPL) if they would fix the muffler hole that rotted thru.

Last edited by RNMarsh; 2nd October 2012 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 07:30 PM   #27939
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What are you saying, PMA? That LOW distortion is OK? Halcro was an esteemed competitor to Parasound, and many other hi fi manufacturers.
Now what did they do 'right' and what did they do 'wrong'?
They made elegant cases, that cost plenty to make and increased the cost to upper hi end, a little like the CTC Blowtorch.
They had VERY LOW measured distortion, probably the lowest in the industry. However it was almost completely derived by massive amounts of global and local negative feedback.
The actual circuit topology was derivative of other designs, and not the lowest open loop distortion topology possible.
The peak current was usually only 15A, a rather mid fi spec.
So you got to pay big money for something that had a pretty case, and no real effort in making the most sophisticated circuitry, but to measure the lowest in continuous 'sine wave' sort of testing.
What about listening? Many loved it, I found it OK, and some of my associates didn't like it. Kind of mixed. Now they are no more, and the rest of us hang in there.
It is a bad time to make expensive, exotic amps and preamps.
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Old 2nd October 2012, 07:54 PM   #27940
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
What are you saying, PMA? That LOW distortion is OK? ...
They had VERY LOW measured distortion, probably the lowest in the industry. However it was almost completely derived by massive amounts of global and local negative feedback.
Yes, low distortion is OK (I was under the impression that you designed for low distortion, was I mistaken?), and yes, apparently they knew what they were doing. Feedback works in the hands of someone who understands basic engineering- they even won "listening contests," so apparently the circuit was "sophisticated" enough. Rave reviews in Stereophile, since you seem to give that sort of thing credence.
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