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Old 30th September 2012, 03:36 PM   #27921
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Default Lots of bass in music

This is completely misinformed about music containing bass. Most record sales are not in Classical. If all you listen to is classical music, you wont find a lot of bass, that is for sure.

In all other forms of American music you will find a bass player in the group of musicians. Jazz, Blues, Rock, Gospel etc. The old standard is the upright acoustic bass and the 4 string electric bass. The highest fundemental tone on the standard bass is under 100 Hz (98Hz).... The lowest is 41.2hz. If your system is -X DB at 50-60Hz, you are missing the full first two tones on the basic 4 string bass guitar (E and A string). You miss the accurate reproduction of the sound and the musical rhythm and foundation of the music.

Since 1956 (Danelectro) and 1961 (Fender) the five string bass has come into popular use. That is the added B string at 30.87Hz. From Wiki- "... the deep sounds of the low B string has become a standard in many genres..."

If you love all forms of music... get in tune yourself and get some quality bass in your system.

-RNMarsh

Last edited by RNMarsh; 30th September 2012 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 30th September 2012, 05:40 PM   #27922
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Well stated, Richard.
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Old 30th September 2012, 06:18 PM   #27923
gk7 is offline gk7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
... If all you listen to is classical music, you wont find a lot of bass, that is for sure. ...
Really ? I think you will find frequencies well below 30 Hz especially on live recordings of a symphonic orchestra.
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Old 30th September 2012, 06:42 PM   #27924
secanbj is offline secanbj  Sweden
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Pretty much every classical orchestra line-up have a doubla bass

Classical Orchestra
2 Double Basses

Early Romantic Orchestra
6 Double basses

Late Romantic Orchestra
8 Double basses

Modern Orchestra
8-10 Double basses

These are tuned with a E1 = 40 Hz some even are 5 stringed with B0 = 31Hz

/Anders
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Old 30th September 2012, 06:50 PM   #27925
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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Of course.

Also piano, bass tuba.
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Last edited by PMA; 30th September 2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 30th September 2012, 07:54 PM   #27926
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperia...ndorfer_(piano)

When I was a student the late great Natalie Limonick lectured from the piano in one of the classrooms at UCLA that housed an Imperial Concert Grand. This one had the cover for the lower extra keys.

Some of the students used to sneak over while Natalie was looking in the other direction and lift the flap on the bottom of the keyboard. When she went back to playing musical examples she would plunge down to play a low note and curse as she missed it
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Old 30th September 2012, 08:38 PM   #27927
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Not a lot... means: not a lot. it doesnt mean I said zero. I didnt write -- "such freq are rare. Nor Almost nothing on most recordings". Compared to the many other forms of music -- bass is a lot more often being played and thruout the entire tune/score. I have a piano in my home... I know it has bass. Even classical piano music scores rarely use the lowest tones (they are very hard to keep in tune). I added in other genre to indicate there is a lot of bass being played and recorded.

To indicate that you wont miss bass with speakers that cut it off -thinking there isnt much to miss anyway or it isnt in the score of a lot of classical music as was shown, is not about the Hi-End IMO. Your speakers need to cleanly go down to 30Hz, at least, to capture all the music recorded; especially heavy bass content in the more popular genre's. So, get on board. When you are -- you will also find low power amps dont cut it for bass drivers (unless you have a stupendous bass Horn speaker). -RNM

Last edited by RNMarsh; 30th September 2012 at 08:53 PM.
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Old 30th September 2012, 09:07 PM   #27928
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What you find is that most rock and r and b is played between low g and the g above it on the bass guitar, this is the chest resonant region.

In a live situation it is accompanied by a bass drum with a fundamental in the 30Hz. region, the gut resonance.

When bands like the who started to use large amounts of sound another thing came into it, and this is the production of bass sub harmonics.

What happened however is that record companies wanted to get more on a side and the cheap record players most people had could not track any low bass, and the reproduction equipment could not reproduce it anyway, so for the most part the low bass content was cut, and in some instances, the Motown sound for instance, the bass was equalised to a punch region peak.

What also happened is that the large concert with huge p.a. systems also became the norm, and these were restricted to a lower cut of in the 50-60Hz. region, ( with a few notable exceptions), and this sort of thing became the norm for most people.

Sound people know that you only need to go down this low to satisfy most people, and it is a lot cheaper to buy and transport, and removing the front skin from the bass drum was a common practice, this pushing up its frequency so it could be heard on the p.a.
You can hear a lot more of what the original sound was by listening to later c.d. versions, since the c.d. format allows much more bass content with no penalties. These have pretty much what was record in the first place and then limited and cut etc. to suit the vagaries of vinyl.
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Old 30th September 2012, 10:17 PM   #27929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
To indicate that you wont miss bass with speakers that cut it off -thinking there isnt much to miss anyway or it isnt in the score of a lot of classical music as was shown, is not about the Hi-End IMO. Your speakers need to cleanly go down to 30Hz, at least, to capture all the music recorded.
2 points.

1) If you've never been to a live orchestral concert, one of the most impressive things you'll notice on your first visit is the quantity and quality of the bass.

2) I've got well over a decade's worth of Double Blind Listening Test results ala Lipshitz & Vanderkooy bla bla, mostly on loudspeakers.

One of the most important facets of our tests is the victim chooses his own music. He (may be female) needs to provide at least one sample of simple, complicated, vocal, instrumental and combinations of these making at least 5 pieces but they can be all pop/classical/etc. The important thing is it must be stuff he listens to for his own enjoyment. But he is free to choose as many as he wants and take the whole day to do the test. Each victim is tested alone.

I do ABC tests rather than ABX cos you get statistical significance faster.

The speaker which came out best is a small 5 ltr vented box with a known LF cutoff of 70Hz. It has beaten much larger & more expensive speakers with much more LF extension and invariably receives favourable comments about its LF performance compared to these including 'more extended .. bla bla' even from speaker designers & recording engineers.

Hardly anyone listens to Also Sprach Zarathustra for pleasure ... and for those who do, the opening is just one part of the whole piece.

And a speaker's LF performance below 70Hz is only one facet of 'bass' performance.

I'm not disputing what is necessary to 'capture all the music recorded'. (I used to have a list of records with music where LF below 40Hz were important and have designed commercial speakers for significant power at 16Hz.) Just what is important for listening pleasure.

It is possible to get good LF performance down to 40Hz and still retain other important speaker qualities in a box of sensible size .. eg 40 ltrs. Going below that really requires a separate subwoofer handling only stuff below 40Hz.

BTW, there should be stereo 'subwoofers'.
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Old 30th September 2012, 11:23 PM   #27930
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Point taken on forms of popular music that may deliberately use the lowest notes more often compared to classical.

But, I wonder ... if I took one of those tracks and digitally excised the frequency content below 50Hz using an extreme cutoff slope, and had people with optimised bass behaviour on their systems AB the original and edited track, how many would pick it? In other words, the actual quality of these systems in playing the whole spectrum of the bass I would suggest is key to how authentic and impressive the bass sounds ...

Frank
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