John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II - Page 2754 - diyAudio
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Old 11th September 2012, 10:40 AM   #27531
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by gk7 View Post
It seems that ABX tests have never been able to detect "small" differences in sound quality...
Start with a false premise, end up with incorrect conclusions.
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Old 11th September 2012, 10:48 AM   #27532
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"false premise"
Ok, show me one example.
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Old 11th September 2012, 11:17 AM   #27533
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Check the links given a few posts back for a (now old) bibliography by Carlstrom. Also see the excellent work from Geddes and Toole. People show fabulous sensitivity to tiny variations in level, frequency response, interchannel delay, phase, and certain types of distortion.
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Old 11th September 2012, 11:22 AM   #27534
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... Carlstrom. Also see the excellent work from Geddes and Toole. ...
In Geddes AES papers there is no ABX test mentioned, will check the others...
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Old 11th September 2012, 11:26 AM   #27535
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It is an interesting argument (decade after decade of trying) , because it implies that numerous controlled listening tests on these topics were done.

That is quite unlikely due to statistical reasons. Otherwise we had dozens or hundreds of positive test results on amplifier sound, dac sound and so on.

But it seems that the number of listening tests is quite small and the sample size order in these is small as well.

If somebody gets a positive test result it is dismissed as it happened to Michael Fremer with his amplifier listening test.

And so SY slightly adjusts his "experimental question" during the ongoing discussions. It starts with "can John Smith or others detect a difference between two DUTs" but is already "can John Smith or others detect a difference between two DUTs (under these test conditions)" because the experimenter obviously doesn´t care about scientific requirements.

In the discussion, although the first question was never tested, the conclusions is drawn that no difference exists, because "John Smith and other were never able to detect......"

So John Curl might think that this point is only a small subset of ´scientific reasoning´ but imho it covers quite a large portion of it. Design of experiments, Operationalisation, statistical analysis, cognitive psychology, psychoacoustical considerations and so on.
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Old 11th September 2012, 11:30 AM   #27536
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Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
Frank, you should really be more careful about protecting your ears. Live levels can damage hearing of course, but also cause hyperacusis. Audiophiles have a tendancy to gradually turn up the volume over time to get that same level of excitement. This is also an example of habituation. Our tolerances increase but our auditory system can only handle so much. It's not just the sound level but the length of time you listen at that level that causes damage. Better to use restraint than pay later, IMHO.
Well, did it again! Wrote a long message and lost it because of timeout of the software ...

Anyway, the gist of it was, thanks for your heartfelt advice, but I do carefully pace myself with sound, and always back off when I pick the signs of overload. An idiot at high school letting off a starting pistol in one ear has made me very sensitive to excessive loudness, so I only listen to high intensity, live quality sound, not the compressed, audibly distorted replay one gets from many systems at higher levels ...

I do appreciate your showing of concern,
Frank
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Old 11th September 2012, 11:39 AM   #27537
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A fascinating misread of my posts. Fremer? You're certainly willing to suspend your high standards for a result you like.
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Old 11th September 2012, 12:02 PM   #27538
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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A fascinating misread of my posts.
Sy, i try to avoid any intentionally misreading of other posts; you´ve stated what your "experimental question" should have been, and i´ve stated what it really was, if no controls were used.

And you were drawing conclusions due to the socalled fact that nobody (decades after decades failed in tests to show) did show a positive test result.

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Fremer? You're certainly willing to suspend your high standards for a result you like.
Please provide a few arguments to back up your assertion.
In which way were the standards suspended?
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Old 11th September 2012, 03:39 PM   #27539
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Not only do I agree with you 100%, I'll go even further- NO test can show that differences between A and B (whatever the variable is) are inaudible. Now, if people who claim differences fail to show any audibility in test after test after test, one can draw a reasonable working conclusion that the differences are inaudible. BUT... one must be open to the possibility that someone, somewhere might demonstrate that A and B can be distinguished.
Any double blind test that fails to take into consideration how our auditory system works, really says nothing all, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

A double blind test that's takes into account that we learn sounds and allows for habituation (this takes time) to take place would be worth something. Why? Because you don't need to see what you're listening to, to hear a difference.

I have ears but I can't echolocate Sy. I've tried. Yet some blind people do Echolocate. They click their tongue and listen for differences in the sound caused by reflections in order to navigate. This takes a whole lot of practice and time, learning these differences, forming conditioned reflexes. It's a difficult test ... but they do it and play games like basket ball or go roller blading down a street.

My ears are incredibly insensitive to these differences and I just can't hear a difference unless it's pretty big. I'm not blind so I'm not going to put in the effort to learn to echolocate.
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Old 11th September 2012, 03:59 PM   #27540
marce is offline marce  United Kingdom
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If i hear differences I also have to ask myself are my expectations affecting what I perceive, hensemy preference for measurments etc to back up my perception.
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