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Old 8th September 2012, 02:43 PM   #27401
bobolix is offline bobolix  Czech Republic
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Originally Posted by bobolix View Post
The equipment is the better, the better it lets hear how bad the recordings are.
Better said maybe (sorry for my english) - The better is the equipment, the better it can be heard, how bad the recordings are.

Usually I care about MUSIC, not about the sound. But, the sound must be so good, so that it do not disturb the music.

I made an extensive analysis of many samples of recordings in various HD formats and CDs as well and the results were horrible frequently. It seems the best quality can be found among the HD digital transfers of analog originals (it means from original tapes to SACD mostly). And, at some vinyls, of course. The problem isn't the digital technology itself, but the quality of the work of people involved.
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Old 8th September 2012, 06:32 PM   #27402
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Right, the problem is, digital era brought easiness of mass-production of lousy records.
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Old 8th September 2012, 07:22 PM   #27403
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
I refuse to participate in a double blind listening test that will prove NOTHING to me, and will be used as propaganda to discredit me. …
Hi John,
You are not alone in this. For me and for some other audio enthusiasts DBX tests are utterly meaningless.

At least many of those tests that followed are basically flawed. When in such tests people cannot distinguish between two amps with considerable, meaningful and clearly measure differences, like between SS and tube power amps – it is a clear indication that those tests are flawed. The reasons for those flaws are irrelevant to the present discussion.

For any test to be valid by scientific criteria, it has to be proven to produce positive results when there are big and meaningful differences. No DBX test that I know of proved to be valid on big and meaningful differences. The mere assumption that because of some possible psychological effects were neutralized, the test must be valid – is unproved and undemonstrated assumption.

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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
... However, AS SOON as I was allowed to listen more naturally, the differences came back. How can this be? …
Again, you are not alone here.
Since for most audio enthusiasts the home sound setup serves as a mean to enjoy listening to reproduced music, under ordinary listening conditions – whatever may be more or less beneficial towards the intended end (enjoying listening to reproduced music) can be found only, or mostly, under the ordinary listening conditions.
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Old 8th September 2012, 07:41 PM   #27404
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
It's interesting to me that the lay buying Public when told we can sell you a product whoich has no audible distortions say great then I'll buy that one. But hay! It doesnt sound like real music! $1,000,000 recording console was used? Same response from public; It doesnt sound like they are listening to perfect electronics - even if they are becsase it doesnt sound real. Just a better HiFi facsimile.

If you say it is perfect - in ABX - then they expect it will sound almost real. It doesnt sound real to them. They know what a voice in their room sounds like and a hifi recording isnt it. They hear live music and they dont get what they pay for in realism so they say f**k-it and buy cheap stuff. We might have 'perfect' electronics that no one can hear any difference in ABX tests but people still know its hifi and not real and they think you have scamed them by saying the electronics is perfect. --- In the consumer view.... perfect in tests means it must be perfect in sound realism. How could it be perfect if it doesnt sound real is thier thought. And, we dont deliver to that expectation. We deliver something else: HiFi.

Because of this view and expectation people (esp. audiophiles) are driven to find something which will explain or make the listening experience more 'real'. Thus, it must be that high gnfb or that cable C and L or tubes vs transistor or analog vs digital... their just HAS to be an explaination for why it doesnt sound real. ABX falls on deaf ears if you cant make the sound more real... not just higher resolving and lower noise and lower thd. -RNM
Hi Richard,

Indeed.

Measured distortion, especially those usually published by manufacturers, like THD in IMD, in themselves, have nothing to do with the degree to which the reproduced music will sound with more realism, or more enjoyable (more 'musical', as some describe it).

It is my own aim and the aim of some other audio enthusiast I know of, that the sound setup will sound with greatest possible degree of realism (or that the setup will be as much 'musical' as possible) – at a given budget. DBT and ABX utterly fail to indicate anything about the degree of realism, or 'musicality' of a sound setup.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:08 PM   #27405
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
DBT and ABX utterly fail to indicate anything about the degree of realism, or 'musicality' of a sound setup.
They're not supposed to, so they "fail" in the same sense that they "fail" to cure cancer or stop rockets falling on your head. All they are meant to do is answer questions of the sort, "Can you/anyone hear the difference between A and B?" And if you can, you can, and if you can't, you can't.

Oh yes, they also "fail" to prevent whining and excuse-making from people who don't like what the results are.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:20 PM   #27406
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That's me, making excuses for the last 1/3 century, and making better and better audio designs.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:28 PM   #27407
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
They're not supposed to, so they "fail" in the same sense that they "fail" to cure cancer or stop rockets falling on your head. All they are meant to do is answer questions of the sort, "Can you/anyone hear the difference between A and B?" And if you can, you can, and if you can't, you can't.

Oh yes, they also "fail" to prevent whining and excuse-making from people who don't like what the results are.
When in many such tests people cannot recognize differences between SS and tube power amps, with large, meaningful and measured differences – those tests were proven to be invalid in enabling detecting any differences at all.

Assuming that a certain test is valid without proving it's validity, is very far away from any scientific approach and methodology.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:28 PM   #27408
SY is offline SY  United States
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If 'different and better sound" is the goal, excuse-making is certainly an easier path than actual design validation. If "marketing to rich folks" is the goal, you and your clients have done an enviable job.

As I've noted before, unlike many products from many high-end designers, your stuff actually DOES sound neutral and works well, so hat's off to you for a fine job of balancing fashion market necessities with delivering solid, reliable product.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:32 PM   #27409
SY is offline SY  United States
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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
When in many such tests people cannot recognize differences between SS and tube power amps, with large, meaningful and measured differences – those tests were proven to be invalid in enabling detecting any differences at all.
If frequency response, level, and (in a gross sense) distortion/noise and stability, differ, even very slightly, people are readily able to discern differences, so you're starting with a false premise.

If you can't trust your ears on their own, that's your choice. I trust mine and don't spend much time or effort worrying about eyes, ego, or faith.
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Old 8th September 2012, 08:37 PM   #27410
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
That's me, making excuses for the last 1/3 century, and making better and better audio designs.
Hi John,
The critics and cynical criticize, while designers design.
I haven’t heard of any widely appreciated High End audio designer who got there, relying only on measurements and DBT.
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