Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 26th August 2012, 12:26 AM   #26991
diyAudio Member
 
Chris Hornbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Little Rock
Well, I'm usually wrong. But just wait til they come for _your_ favorite music with their digitally clipped remasters. Bet you'll be a "cold dead hands" guy too!

Thanks,
Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 12:33 AM   #26992
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Everyone, I would like to point out that many, many people still do not really like the sound of digital, including me. It has been this way for the past 35 years, at least.
And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 26th August 2012 at 12:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 12:48 AM   #26993
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank
Do tell. Exactly what digital set up provided you with satisfying CD playback over 25 years ago? Which would have been around 1987, only about five years after the introduction of the format.
__________________
Ken
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 12:50 AM   #26994
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Canoga Park, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck View Post

Listen to any of the 2008 Van Morrison reissues and tell me that even 8 bits is needed anymore. Or recent EmmyLou Harris remasters, or lots of others. Sinful.

Chris
This too shall pass.

Whether it will do so while we are still alive is an open question.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 12:56 AM   #26995
bcarso is offline bcarso  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Canoga Park, California
Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
And that's so sad ...

I first got the good stuff, satisfying sound from digital, CD, over 25 years ago, and knew from then on that it was all about the implementation, as others here have stated. At times I have been staggered by how gratingly and tediously unpleasant very expensive digital playback can sound, and there's no reason for that; apart from the fact that many see top notch measurements routinely achieved and claim that therefore all is solved, nothing more needs or can be done. Well, there is just a bit more to it than that: digital is a hard taskmaster, and if you don't treat her right, she'll bite you in the bum. Or bore you to death ...

Frank
One of the earliest digital recordings was the "Cleveland Winds" doing Holst and Handel and Bach, under the baton of Freddie Fennell, with Stockham's 50k 16 bit sampling box. But I suspect he and his folks really labored over the hardware to ensure monotonicity. Even with the sample rate conversions the stuff sounds o.k. to me today, if not the greatest ever. But then I do love the Holst, so I'm inclined to forgive.

Last edited by bcarso; 26th August 2012 at 12:57 AM. Reason: remembered Handel
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 12:57 AM   #26996
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Eastern Pennsylvania
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck

WRT John's scepticism, let me just say that the mathematical result of an ideal bandlimited, properly dithered A/D/A conversion is a exact replica (in all respects, at all levels including below the smallest bit, and at all frequencies - exact) of the original, plus a small noise, plus a time delay. Period. That's the ideal.

To make progress in this field we need to keep in mind that observed imperfections are not fundamental to the A/D/A conversion, but are instead artifacts of a particular implementation.

Thanks, as always,
Chris
Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.
__________________
Ken
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 01:25 AM   #26997
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Newton View Post
Do tell. Exactly what digital set up provided you with satisfying CD playback over 25 years ago? Which would have been around 1987, only about five years after the introduction of the format.
As I've made clear many times, it's all about worrying about the small stuff that makes it happen. And simplifying. The system was a Yamaha CDX1100, the top of line unit for the day with digital volume control, directly driving a Perreaux power amp, and B&W bookshelf speaker. This was all hard wired, from the power feed in the room wall socket right the way through to the speaker drivers. A ritual of constantly finding and eliminating little weaknesses was absolutely essential, and still only guaranteed top notch performance for a relatively short period of time, the sound quality would slowly degrade following a process of effectively resetting the electronics.

But it was enough to make me aware of what could be achieved. Back then I knew far less than now, so the situation now is a lot more in hand ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 26th August 2012 at 01:27 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 01:40 AM   #26998
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
Quote:
Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.
sure - just list all of the properly blinded, psychoacoustically controlled listening tests that shows they're audible with music - even for 10% of the listening population

after all shouldn't "night and day" differences be able to AB/Xed?
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 01:41 AM   #26999
diyAudio Member
 
Chris Hornbeck's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Little Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Newton View Post
Yes, perfect sound forever, in the frequency-domain. Chris, now tell us about the time-domain distortion inherent to ideal bandlimited sampling and reconstruction.
There is none. The bandlimiting itself can cause variable group delay issues, depending on implementation, but it's not inherent in the A/D/A conversion process.

I know I must sound like a broken record, but we need to keep focussed on the real issues. And yes, I do still have over fifty feet of vinyl records and a good player. But I certainly wouldn't choose to buy a new vinyl record now rather than a CD if both were correctly mastered.

Funny, nobody ever complains about the group delay issues of vinyl records, although they're well understood.

Thanks,
Chris
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 01:59 AM   #27000
Sin Bin
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hangzhou - Marco Polo's 'most beautiful city'. 700yrs is a long time though...
Blog Entries: 84
Send a message via MSN to abraxalito Send a message via Yahoo to abraxalito Send a message via Skype™ to abraxalito
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hornbeck View Post
There is none.
So you have an ideal brickwall AAF with no overshoot in the time domain whatsoever?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:23 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2