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Old 17th August 2012, 04:28 AM   #26511
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
No, such a recording is not a problem for me. As you say, here it's not SPL's but that the harmonic structure of the notes of the instrument is such that the slightest problem with high frequency distortion is extremely obvious, and disturbing. All my experience over the years has demonstrated that you need to put maximum effort into eliminating all the distortion mechanisms that create that subjective impression of raggedness. The good news is that, at least for me, that there is a finite number of things, problems, that have be knocked on the head to get rid of that type of distortion ...

Frank
What do you do to improve the sound for greater realism in your system? The short version, first.
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:41 AM   #26512
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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
What do you do to improve the sound for greater realism in your system? The short version, first.
Frank and I have fairly similar approaches. Repeated removal of artifacts until we get a satisfying sound. Noise control is my main focus - power supplies and grounding need lots of attention, especially where digital circuits are involved.
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:54 AM   #26513
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Frank and I have fairly similar approaches. Repeated removal of artifacts until we get a satisfying sound. Noise control is my main focus - power supplies and grounding need lots of attention, especially where digital circuits are involved.
Yes, exactly. Plus, digital seems to be very prone to static effects. Anything you can do to reduce the buildup of static, for any reason, in any area, is beneficial.

Frank
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:12 AM   #26514
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
In my experience it's quite straightforward: first of all, music replay in the home is never loud enough, and secondly treble is usually mangled to some degree.

Why isn't it loud enough? Because when you turn up a normal system it becomes raucously LOUD, as in unpleasant, in your face irritating. Otherwise known as distortion . Makes you want to run to the volume control, so it becomes "nice" again. And one thing real music is, is not "nice": intense, dynamic, gut wrenching, powerful, high SPL's, is the name of the game there ...

Unless a system can do high SPL's totally cleanly you haven't a hope ...

And the other thing is treble: typically it's made baby food smooth, or it's got the bite to slice slivers of skin off your ear canal. The real thing is neither of those, but very few systems get it right, because it's the hardest thing to do. Unless a recording of a solo saxophone, or violin punches with the impact of the real thing in the listening room then it will never happen. And this is the area where all the really irky, devil's in the details, fiddly bits and pieces in the system as a unified entity make or break the sound ...

Frank
I would generally agree with you. It goes in the right direction. I use very high power amps that never clip at realistic spl. When I made my own recordings of a group -- the cymbols amazed me in thier clarity. SO right there I knew something is amiss in the recording side of things. It never stayed clean and clear getting on/off LP or CD.
Digital downloads off the masters have that quality of being closer to live and real. It never sounds as good as it does in the studio or from the master recording.
What's That all about?

Last edited by RNMarsh; 17th August 2012 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:14 AM   #26515
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Does that surprise you?

What answer would you give to your own question?

OK just seen your new post. I would expect to see a set of frequency components, spaced in frequency by 1/beat, centred around the drum fundamental and its overtones. There could be components at lower frequencies.

Note that to measure 'a frequency' you need it to last for an infinite time, so a real drum does not have a frequency but it does have a waveform so it also has a Fourier transform.
Now are you talking about real music or a recording of music?

A fun question is does a horn sound the same in LA as in Boulder?

If you had the equipment to actually measure 20 seconds of music I think you would find energy in the .05 hz bin.
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:20 AM   #26516
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Digital downloads off the masters have that quality of being closer to live and real. It never sounds as good as it does in the studio or from the master recording.
What's That all about?
I can take a guess. Pros use balanced cables, so CM noise is much less of an issue than for audiophiles. Also perhaps the studio has some industrial grade power line conditioning and doesn't run its air-conditioning, refrigerator, PCs and flat panel displays etc. on the same spur as all the audio kit?
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:21 AM   #26517
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
Now are you talking about real music or a recording of music?

A fun question is does a horn sound the same in LA as in Boulder?.
Exactly. And then someone wonders that a horn sounds different in his living room
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Old 17th August 2012, 05:49 AM   #26518
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jneutron,

Thanks for the insight and design notes on the resistors. Cool picture of the coxial version... nice work.

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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

The second is a design from NIST, they sold rights. The interesting thing was, they made a large array of resistors just like I did, but they did NOT fold the current back through the array for total cancellation. As a result, they absolutely must keep symmetry in their voltage pickup. Too close to the current leads and there is a leading edge overshoot, too far and the risetime is too slow.

The third, fluke, is like the resistor I made back a ways, it was coaxial by design...pic attached.

ps..I have that nist paper somewhere in my office, buried..sigh


jn
If memory serves this is the paper you're looking for from NIST way back.

An earlier example of the design Fluke based thier shunts on is here. Could be described as coxial assembled array with seperate forward and return paths to each resistor in the array through the "ribs" around the sides. Field containment is inherent in the mirrored copper on both sides of the the ribs and end plates for these paths, not in the coaxial shape of the assembly. Still looks like a pain to build...

Cheers,
Dave

ps. apologies for those not IEEE I&M or digital library members... full text only available with login.
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Old 17th August 2012, 06:00 AM   #26519
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
I would generally agree with you. It goes in the right direction. I use very high power amps that never clip at realistic spl. When I made my own recordings of a group -- the cymbols amazed me in thier clarity. SO right there I knew something is amiss in the recording side of things. It never stayed clean and clear getting on/off LP or CD.
Digital downloads off the masters have that quality of being closer to live and real. It never sounds as good as it does in the studio or from the master recording.
What's That all about?
As abraxalito also pointed out, the studio will often have industrial strength methods for preventing interference mucking up the sound. And in my experience that is precisely what is required in the home environment as well. Or equivalent. A simple word that expresses it perfectly is 'fussy'. Be fussy, fussy, fussy, over and over again; any sloppiness, anywhere, will be penalised with sound well less than the best.

And the better the sound you get, the harder, the more precarious it is to achieve sustained, optimum replay. It does seem like balancing on a razor blade at times ...

Frank
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Old 17th August 2012, 06:02 AM   #26520
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Originally Posted by SY View Post
I've got Audiotester, Soundeasy, HOLM, and IMP. These are not uncommon.

Same deal with LEAP, AP, LMS. Arta...

https://www.google.com/search?q=spea...D8jhqgH_9YDYDw
Can any of these do a 20 second transform so we can see what energy is present in real music?
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