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Old 17th August 2012, 02:17 AM   #26501
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Default Fall back question--

SY --

As long as music replayed in the home does not sound like real musicial instruements being played in the home, my position is that we aren't there yet. And, I want to know why.

It isnt just the speakers or the room. Nor headphones. I have owned a lot of speakers -- the newest Quads, too. Best headphones. Both with much lower distortion than typical reproducers. Etc etc. It doesnt sound like real music. very nice, yes. Real, no. Low distortion equipment -- tube and solid state. my piano still sounds better than any repo music. There is no contest here... repo music by any means we know of and by any test system we know of.... it doesnt sound real as in 'live' in your room.

DBT do not tell us how to make music sound real. All the normal tests we do doesnt make music sound real. So where are we blocked?

Years ago, I was invited to the Skywalker Ranch with a classical violin player (H.Munday) and heard him live for hours being recorded. Then I heard him on Long Island in the home of a friend play in the living room a short piece before his public playing that evening. There is Nothing like a real live performance in your own space to calibrate your ears.

That's when you want to just burn your sound system. No matter how good we are at testing hardware, we dont have real sounding systems for any realistic amount of money. It isnt the fault of FFT or any measurement of the hardware. What will make it all better

-RNM

Last edited by RNMarsh; 17th August 2012 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 02:37 AM   #26502
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
As a postmodernist I have no trouble answering that question - each person's perception is 'the real view'. Those who cling to the notion of 'objective truth' will have to rationalize on this one
The difference is testing hardware with hardware I/O. As soon as you put people inplace of the Output... all goes to H**l, it seems.

Last edited by RNMarsh; 17th August 2012 at 02:40 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 03:03 AM   #26503
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
SY --

As long as music replayed in the home does not sound like real musicial instruements being played in the home, my position is that we aren't there yet. And, I want to know why.
100% agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
It isnt just the speakers or the room. Nor headphones.
100% agreed.

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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
DBT do not tell us how to make music sound real. All the normal tests we do doesnt make music sound real. So where are we blocked?
They aren't supposed to. What are are supposed to do, and in fact do very well, is answer questions like, "Can I distinguish between A and B by ear alone? Can anyone? If I can distinguish between A and B, which do I prefer if I just use my ears? Which do most people prefer?" I've written often about where I personally believe we're blocked- and that is the stereo paradigm. I noticed in Floyd Toole's postings on LinkedIn that he has been saying very much the same thing.

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Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
There is Nothing like a real live performance in your own space to calibrate your ears.
Again, 100% agreed. Until I left Austin a couple months ago, that was something we did regularly at my house. Now I have to rely on my own playing and that of friends until I start getting connected into the Chicago music scene.
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Old 17th August 2012, 03:21 AM   #26504
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
SY --

As long as music replayed in the home does not sound like real musicial instruements being played in the home, my position is that we aren't there yet. And, I want to know why.

It isnt just the speakers or the room. Nor headphones. I have owned a lot of speakers -- the newest Quads, too. Best headphones. Both with much lower distortion than typical reproducers. Etc etc. It doesnt sound like real music. very nice, yes. Real, no. Low distortion equipment -- tube and solid state. my piano still sounds better than any repo music. There is no contest here... repo music by any means we know of and by any test system we know of.... it doesnt sound real as in 'live' in your room.

DBT do not tell us how to make music sound real. All the normal tests we do doesnt make music sound real. So where are we blocked?

Years ago, I was invited to the Skywalker Ranch with a classical violin player (H.Munday) and heard him live for hours being recorded. Then I heard him on Long Island in the home of a friend play in the living room a short piece before his public playing that evening. There is Nothing like a real live performance in your own space to calibrate your ears.

That's when you want to just burn your sound system. No matter how good we are at testing hardware, we dont have real sounding systems for any realistic amount of money. It isnt the fault of FFT or any measurement of the hardware. What will make it all better

-RNM
In my experience it's quite straightforward: first of all, music replay in the home is never loud enough, and secondly treble is usually mangled to some degree.

Why isn't it loud enough? Because when you turn up a normal system it becomes raucously LOUD, as in unpleasant, in your face irritating. Otherwise known as distortion . Makes you want to run to the volume control, so it becomes "nice" again. And one thing real music is, is not "nice": intense, dynamic, gut wrenching, powerful, high SPL's, is the name of the game there ...

Unless a system can do high SPL's totally cleanly you haven't a hope ...

And the other thing is treble: typically it's made baby food smooth, or it's got the bite to slice slivers of skin off your ear canal. The real thing is neither of those, but very few systems get it right, because it's the hardest thing to do. Unless a recording of a solo saxophone, or violin punches with the impact of the real thing in the listening room then it will never happen. And this is the area where all the really irky, devil's in the details, fiddly bits and pieces in the system as a unified entity make or break the sound ...

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 17th August 2012 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 03:29 AM   #26505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
And the other thing is treble: typically it's made baby food smooth, or it's got the bite to slice slivers of skin off your ear canal. The real thing is neither of those, but very few systems get it right, because it's the hardest thing to do. Unless a recording of a solo saxophone, or violin punches with the impact of the real thing in the listening room then it will never happen. And this is the area where all the really irky, devils in the details, fiddly bits and pieces in the system as a unified entity make or break the sound ...
Fairly close-miked harpsichord is the torture material for me. How long can you listen to that on your system, with volume at a realistic level? The harpsichord is quite a quiet instrument, it doesn't produce SPLs anywhere near that of a piano. But boy, if your top end is at all ragged you probably won't be able to listen to a whole CD of this material without at least turning it down, or off or finding blood dripping from your ears.
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Old 17th August 2012, 03:47 AM   #26506
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by abraxalito View Post
Fairly close-miked harpsichord is the torture material for me. How long can you listen to that on your system, with volume at a realistic level? The harpsichord is quite a quiet instrument, it doesn't produce SPLs anywhere near that of a piano. But boy, if your top end is at all ragged you probably won't be able to listen to a whole CD of this material without at least turning it down, or off or finding blood dripping from your ears.
No, such a recording is not a problem for me. As you say, here it's not SPL's but that the harmonic structure of the notes of the instrument is such that the slightest problem with high frequency distortion is extremely obvious, and disturbing. All my experience over the years has demonstrated that you need to put maximum effort into eliminating all the distortion mechanisms that create that subjective impression of raggedness. The good news is that, at least for me, that there is a finite number of things, problems, that have be knocked on the head to get rid of that type of distortion ...

Frank
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:01 AM   #26507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
SY --

As long as music replayed in the home does not sound like real musicial instruements being played in the home, my position is that we aren't there yet. And, I want to know why.

-RNM
It is just impossible to re-create the original sound field. I assume you are smart enough to understand why. You will NEVER get the "real" sound, just the "reproduced" sound.
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:13 AM   #26508
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post

They aren't supposed to. What are are supposed to do, and in fact do very well, is answer questions like, "Can I distinguish between A and B by ear alone? Can anyone? If I can distinguish between A and B, which do I prefer if I just use my ears? Which do most people prefer?" I've written often about where I personally believe we're blocked- and that is the stereo paradigm. I noticed in Floyd Toole's postings on LinkedIn that he has been saying very much the same thing.

Again, 100% agreed. Until I left Austin a couple months ago, that was something we did regularly at my house. Now I have to rely on my own playing and that of friends until I start getting connected into the Chicago music scene.
What we are supposd to do, apparently isnt what I want. I want to close the gap between real music sound and what we have now.

The stereo paradigm is a big blockage, no doubt. I read his comments. But a replacement needs to be demonstrated to know how much progress can be made there towards realism. It has been done in limited ways with 'surround' sound and the advance in realism IS in some ways better. And, there has been a concerted efford to get it into the homes... muliti-channel recivers are the defacto standard in stores. But, costs have limited that acceptance. I am not sure I have heard a convincing demo, yet. And, well made audio suround recordings for such are very limited. Mostly, used for movie sounds.

Go down on Holstead Street and listen to some blues for me or over behind the hotel - Buddy Guy's 'Legends' blues bar. Thx. Dick

Last edited by RNMarsh; 17th August 2012 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:16 AM   #26509
fas42 is online now fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by PMA View Post
It is just impossible to re-create the original sound field. I assume you are smart enough to understand why. You will NEVER get the "real" sound, just the "reproduced" sound.
A thought experiment: you're in a soundproof room at a prime listening spot in a concert hall. Punch a round hole in the end facing the orchestra, and listen, blindfolded, to an orchestra playing. Then, insert a very high quality, perhaps coaxial speaker driver in the hole. And on the outside place a high quality mic facing the orchestra, with amplifier, etc. And repeat the listening exercise.

Will you be fooled, or not? And why?

Frank

Last edited by fas42; 17th August 2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 17th August 2012, 04:18 AM   #26510
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
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It is just impossible to re-create the original sound field. I assume you are smart enough to understand why. You will NEVER get the "real" sound, just the "reproduced" sound.
Maybe not. But, what do we have to do to close the wide gap? Thats my question.
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