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Old 16th August 2012, 08:16 PM   #26451
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
He also filled me in a bit about the 10usec arrival discrimination bit and how it is used at low frequencies and stops working around 1,000 hz.
Stops working around 1k??

I guess you could make the assumptions that everything above 1k is not jittered by cone movement due to lf content, and I guess one could also assume that there are no other pressure wavefronts below 1k to modulate zero crossings the cilia respond to..



jn
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:21 PM   #26452
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
Stops working around 1k??

I guess you could make the assumptions that everything above 1k is not jittered by cone movement due to lf content, and I guess one could also assume that there are no other pressure wavefronts below 1k to modulate zero crossings the cilia respond to..



jn
That's one method of localization, then others come into play. The interesting issues was when HF is modulated by LF.

His suggestion was to play tones into a pair of headphones and use a phase adjustment on one ear. Above 1K the shifting goes away. I haven't tried it but if you get a different result I certainly will. That would make for another interesting lunch.

John spelling corrected during cross posting!

Last edited by simon7000; 16th August 2012 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:26 PM   #26453
DF96 is offline DF96  England
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Originally Posted by simon7000
No we understand it. Everybody who does gets a chuckle out of your assertions.
Perhaps you could briefly state what it is you believe I and others are asserting, which you disbelieve and your friends find amusing.

As I recall this issue arose from your claim of 'distortion' arising from a first-order CR filter, because the output signal looks different from the input signal so you believe it contains new frequency components (or, perhaps, that the concept of frequency components is false/unhelpful in this context)..
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:27 PM   #26454
1audio is online now 1audio  United States
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post
You are welcome.

If you ever decide to persue this, let me know, I'll assist if you wish.

My first resistors used simple clad perfboard, but I've also used 1/8th copper with drilled holes in a hexagonal array for packing density. Recently aquired an x/y/rotary machining stage for my wooden gear clock stuff, it would be perfect for drilling an array of holes into copper. Once the resistors are soldered, the whole kittenkaboodle can be epoxied to a heatsink form using stycast thermal epoxy, that'll get back the sum of the dissipation rating.


Since I have published this in the public domain, there are no costs associated with IP.

Oh btw. The best I've ever measured is 250 pH, I cannot reliably measure below that. If I need to do so, I'd have to toss a 250 pSec step into it and look for overshoot. 250 picoseconds is how fast a mercury wetted relay lets go. 350 on make. (IIRC, could be t'other way round, it's been 31 years.)

jn
Here is another treatment of the issue with good illustrations:http://www.newtons4th.com/wp-content...ncellation.pdf

You can buy commercial variations on the concept-AC Current Shunt, Alternating Current Shunt, Precision Current Measurement http://support.fluke.com/calibration...03_ENG_B_W.PDF

There are a few others also used in cal labs.
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:29 PM   #26455
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
No we understand it. Everybody who does gets a chuckle out of your assertions.


See Periodic function - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Appeal to experts now? That IS silly. DF96, I suggest you give up until Ed can address the issues on his own.
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Last edited by scott wurcer; 16th August 2012 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:35 PM   #26456
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Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
The one method of localization, then others come into play. The interesting issues was when HF is modulated by LF.
The one method of localization?? You have lost me.

His suggestion was to play tones into a pair of headphones and use a phase adjustment on one ear. Above 1K the shifting goes away. I haven't tried it but if you get a different result I certainly will. That would make for another interesting lunch.[/QUOTE]

I have an even better idea.

Get two turntables (technics direct drive SL 51's work the best).

Get two 12 inch singles of the same song.

Get a nice mixer.

Get a reasonable headphone, stereo of course.

Synch both songs, run program in your left ear, run cue in your right ear.

Now, set the intermix slider in the middle.

Take one turntable, and slow it down/speed it up so that the image YOU hear in the headphones slides from right to left, left to right. YOU will hear all the musical content drifting from one side to the other.

Your customers on the dance floor will hear a phasing/flanging effect.

Oddly enough, your friend hasn't gotten out much, eh? I was doing this in a nightclub back in 1978. Still have the vinyl as well as the tables and mixer. Just recently sold two 18 inch PAS speakers and gave away two PAS 15's in a cab with a pair of D205TI tweets..

To prove my point in striking fashion, get two copies of Freddy James "Get on up and boogie" or France Jolie's "Come to me", the cymbals were recorded VERY hot on both, although they are albums, not 12 inch singles. Yet, the cymbals still slide from side to side during phasing/flanging.


jn
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:39 PM   #26457
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
Perhaps you could briefly state what it is you believe I and others are asserting, which you disbelieve and your friends find amusing.

As I recall this issue arose from your claim of 'distortion' arising from a first-order CR filter, because the output signal looks different from the input signal so you believe it contains new frequency components (or, perhaps, that the concept of frequency components is false/unhelpful in this context)..
A first order CR filter increases distortion by reducing the level of the fundamental even on periodic signals is one issue.

A non periodic signal that does not have a derivative that is similar to itself will also distort. A sin has cosine so there is only phase shift in those cases.

Noise and music are non-periodic so they cannot be reduced to a Fourier series.

Let me know what you don't understand.

Last edited by simon7000; 16th August 2012 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:44 PM   #26458
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

I have an even better idea.

Get two turntables (technics direct drive SL 51's work the best).

Get two 12 inch singles of the same song.

Get a nice mixer.

Get a reasonable headphone, stereo of course.

Synch both songs, run program in your left ear, run cue in your right ear.

Now, set the intermix slider in the middle.

Take one turntable, and slow it down/speed it up so that the image YOU hear in the headphones slides from right to left, left to right. YOU will hear all the musical content drifting from one side to the other.

Your customers on the dance floor will hear a phasing/flanging effect.

Oddly enough, your friend hasn't gotten out much, eh? I was doing this in a nightclub back in 1978. Still have the vinyl as well as the tables and mixer. Just recently sold two 18 inch PAS speakers and gave away two PAS 15's in a cab with a pair of D205TI tweets..

To prove my point in striking fashion, get two copies of Freddy James "Get on up and boogie" or France Jolie's "Come to me", the cymbals were recorded VERY hot on both, although they are albums, not 12 inch singles. Yet, the cymbals still slide from side to side during phasing/flanging.


jn
John,

That is known as Flanging because it was originally done with phase locked tape players and by changing the drag on just one you got the effect. We are not talking about those issues. I suspect that getting the records out of sync by 10 usec would be really difficult! More delay of course changes the image location!

We are just talking about one part of stereo localization.

Although at lunch we did diss Sirius radio as it has too many of those artifacts!
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:48 PM   #26459
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Originally Posted by 1audio View Post
Here is another treatment of the issue with good illustrations:http://www.newtons4th.com/wp-content...ncellation.pdf

You can buy commercial variations on the concept-AC Current Shunt, Alternating Current Shunt, Precision Current Measurement http://support.fluke.com/calibration...03_ENG_B_W.PDF

There are a few others also used in cal labs.
Nice info, thanks.

The newton4 method is what I designed back in '81 for my TRR rig. I splayed 10 Be0 10 ohm resistors in a radial pattern on the 1/4 thick copper plate.

The second is a design from NIST, they sold rights. The interesting thing was, they made a large array of resistors just like I did, but they did NOT fold the current back through the array for total cancellation. As a result, they absolutely must keep symmetry in their voltage pickup. Too close to the current leads and there is a leading edge overshoot, too far and the risetime is too slow.

The third, fluke, is like the resistor I made back a ways, it was coaxial by design...pic attached. If you look carefully, it was a b##ch to build. I abandoned it because the coaxial tube structure still had inherent inductance, it's just that the field was confined to the space between tubes. And yah, it's slant fin.. The tube with the four kapton tape rollups is the building/centering fixture. It kept the two tubes axially correct during soldering.

The second and third designs will moniter current very well, but they still will have insertion inductance, it's the B dot component of the measurement leads that they zero'd.


ps..I have that nist paper somewhere in my office, buried..sigh


jn
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Last edited by jneutron; 16th August 2012 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 16th August 2012, 08:48 PM   #26460
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Appeal to experts now? That IS silly. DF96, I suggest you give up until Ed can address the issues on his own.
No lunch with a friend and telling funny stories. Then I come across DF beating his chest!
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