John Curl's Blowtorch preamplifier part II - Page 2586 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Member Areas > The Lounge

The Lounge A place to talk about almost anything but politics and religion.

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 9th August 2012, 01:29 AM   #25851
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
Quote:
amoungst other things
also includes examples that appear to be direct refutations of the "waveform shape is more important" rubric

like the relative inaudibility of ms all pass phase shift networks, appearance of multiple spatially separated dynamic drivers, LR4 phase inverting crossovers in "high end" speakers...

psychoacoustics is complex, neither time nor frequency domain plots of music waveforms read by human eyeballs, interpreted by the small set of simple heuristics you can keep in conscious working memory will let you say what or if every feature you can point to on either time or frequency plots will sound like

Last edited by jcx; 9th August 2012 at 01:32 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 01:38 AM   #25852
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
..... AFAIK no one made any claims that it gives some special insite into the ear/brain interaction, or for that matter the audibility of anything?
No need to... I made the straw man to bring up the point. I use FFt/THd/MLSSA/IM et al. But, I am leaning to finding correlations. I think my input has demonstarated that.

On this forum and this DIY site there are lots of fft graphs of someone's favorite design. So, they go back and forth on listening and fft data or IM or what-ever. Without correlation.

Is this nieve to ask you/others here to try and think about doing tests that do correlate better or even easier? If we dont or cant, who will? Are we doomed to this situation?

Is anyone here capable of designing test equipment that can correlate better? What would we need to do that? Or, tests that do with what we have? Does anyone even care?

Thx, Dick
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 01:52 AM   #25853
jcx is offline jcx  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ..
measures that correlate with listening impressions will require someone to start presenting Psychoacoustic Science informed, controlled, Blinded listening tests with positive results – correlating with circuit or waveform features

so far the very 1st step (precondition really) appears to be a insurmountable hurdle for the "subjectivist" Audiophile community


we do have the GedLee Metric - rarely brought up but actually has some human test data: http://www.gedlee.com/distortion_perception.htm

Last edited by jcx; 9th August 2012 at 01:54 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 01:54 AM   #25854
diyAudio Member
 
Wavebourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Send a message via Skype™ to Wavebourn
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
Is anyone here capable of designing test equipment that can correlate better? What would we need to do that?
One approach: to predict all possible flaws of all possible topologies.
Another approach: to have exact model of sound perception.

While it is impossible (see Sound Quality and Measurements thread in Lounge) design of audio equipment is an art that uses science and technology.
__________________
"Our youth [...] have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, contradict their parents, [...] and tyrannize their teachers. -- Plato, 447-367 BCE
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 02:17 AM   #25855
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcx View Post
measures that correlate with listening impressions will require someone to start presenting Psychoacoustic Science informed, controlled, Blinded listening tests with positive results – correlating with circuit or waveform features
Listening tests are very boring for the participants, blinded even more so; pyschoacoutics then "says" the results are pretty meaningless because the people being tested give up being interested in what's going on ... the human being has got better things to do then listen to repetitive "noise".

I would like to see ABXs testing methodology compared, where group 1 gets nothing for their efforts, group 2 are promised a nice afternoon tea after the session, and group 3 gets a thousand dollars shared between them if they can distinguish different scenarios at a good enough level. But, some might say, that is irrelevant to scientific understanding ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 02:22 AM   #25856
SY is offline SY  United States
diyAudio Moderator
 
SY's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicagoland
Blog Entries: 1
And indeed it is. The last auditory DBT I participated in was one of audibility of midrange phase shift (all pass). No rewards, wasn't easy, but some of us are more motivated than others by sheer curiosity about what we can and can't hear. The unmotivated ones just make excuses, the motivated ones actually learn something, but that's how it always is, isn't it?
__________________
You might be screaming "No, no, no" and all they hear is "Who wants cake?" Let me tell you something: They all do. They all want cake.- Wilford Brimley
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 02:25 AM   #25857
diyAudio Member
 
Wavebourn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pleasant Hill, CA
Send a message via Skype™ to Wavebourn
My usual tests are more than blind: when people show by their reactions that their imagination had been fooled no need for any other methodology. Either somebody is scared, or say something about sounds from outside, or ask who plays piano inside, and so on... People even do not know that they participate in tests. Even I don't know, I just collect such spontaneous reactions.
__________________
"Our youth [...] have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders, contradict their parents, [...] and tyrannize their teachers. -- Plato, 447-367 BCE
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 02:51 AM   #25858
diyAudio Member
 
john curl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: berkeley ca
Right you are, Wavebourn!
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 03:33 AM   #25859
RNMarsh is offline RNMarsh  United States
diyAudio Member
 
RNMarsh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 2457 Cascade Trail; Cool, CA. 95614
It sure wont be easy and could take years. My hats off to F.Toole for taking on what he did. He found sensitivities we thought only Golden ears could hear. So without test equipment nor anyone willing to do the long term, full time research (anyone need a PHd thesis?), I have to use the idea that if a big enough number of people hear something, the chances are its true. If it is completely nuts, then forget it of course.

If one took in such info along with good engineering practices etal, and folded in as much of both into a product.... the price might go up... but some improvement will be made over time.

This is what I see JC as having done. A whole life time -- wow -- on just adding in or folding a little here and a little there as he gets input until the product seems like magic. John says he wont tell all. Guess we'll have to raid his place when he dies and read his notes. JC - take more notes.

But there are some things we will get wrong and fold that in too. But odds are if enough people say something matters, then it does and you wont be adding in unnecessary expense. That does happen a lot in high-end.

I am going to see if others elsewhere have the desire to be challenged to find test measurments that do correlate better than what we have now. Thx for all input... we got there.

-Dick Marsh
BTW GedDLee and Toole are over on Facebook with a group you can join in and get thier candid thoughts and ask questions.

Last edited by RNMarsh; 9th August 2012 at 03:38 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 9th August 2012, 05:03 AM   #25860
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
fas42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NSW, Australia
Blog Entries: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by RNMarsh View Post
But odds are if enough people say something matters, then it does and you wont be adding in unnecessary expense. That does happen a lot in high-end.
The closer you get, the more all the little somethings do start to really figure, it can drive a sane man ... best to just accept that what you have is good enough sometimes ...

Frank
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2