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Old 2nd June 2012, 10:16 PM   #23641
gpapag is offline gpapag  Greece
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Quote:
Circuit layout is an 'ART' all to itself.
If you focus on the looks of it, it may be an “art”. If proper functionality is in focus, then it is a learnt art, i.e. a craft requiring knowledge and skill in applying reasoning.
If (*) proper functioning of a circuit is affected by the 3D morphology of it’s physical implementation, then circuit layout should be considered by the electrical circuit designer an inherent part of his job.

George

(*)I am a bit sarcastic here. It is well known that it is affected. The question is if the “parasitic” capacitances and inductances due to component positioning are considered much more important than some parasitics due to component’s own construction.
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Old 3rd June 2012, 02:57 AM   #23642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audio View Post
I don't follow the split vs. single discussion. Perhaps a model may make this more obvious since we seem to have gone around a loop here.

Split primary passes more noise than a single primary- how? Is it intrinsic or just due to the physical implementation?
I think the comment was that split prim sound better.
The only thing I can think of is the winding geometry. With split prim, you
need a layer of insulation between the two windings due to the voltage
gradient in parallel (120V) mode.
So split prims will have less 'tight' winding geometry = slightly more leakage
inductance, but it must be pretty small difference.
Quote:
How does the split secondary cancel the noise?
I think here Ed is referring to voltage gradient across the prim when
distributed / coupled to 2 secondaries can cancel.
Quote:
38 pF from AC primary to DC ground on the secondary is not much. Maybe measuring the response of the transformer is the next step?
Measuring - Good idea.
And FWIW you can easily go less than 38puf (without ES shield) if you are
careful with construction.
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Old 3rd June 2012, 04:30 AM   #23643
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I think that things are getting very confused. Usually, 'less is best' and a more simple construction, all else being equal, is usually best. And a single primary is slightly cheaper too!
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Old 3rd June 2012, 11:06 AM   #23644
Bonsai is offline Bonsai  Taiwan
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I've just posted up the details on my new power amp (e-Amp) on my website. Fully balanced symmetrical fans will be happy!

:-)
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Old 4th June 2012, 03:14 AM   #23645
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audio View Post
I don't follow the split vs. single discussion. Perhaps a model may make this more obvious since we seem to have gone around a loop here.

Split primary passes more noise than a single primary- how? Is it intrinsic or just due to the physical implementation?

How does the split secondary cancel the noise?

Are you talking differential or common mode noise?

38 pF from AC primary to DC ground on the secondary is not much. Maybe measuring the response of the transformer is the next step?
negative and positive are never symmetrical in draw, thus a split tap causes unequal loading in the dynamic or instantaneous impedance considerations at the the given moment of complex draw.(one rail vs the other)

To avoid this non-linearity under dynamic draw in the micro moment sense, we go to two transformers.

The art of perfection, not the art of good enough.

That art of perfection sees the problem and then demands the solution.

Last edited by KBK; 4th June 2012 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 4th June 2012, 03:40 AM   #23646
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Originally Posted by gpapag View Post
If you focus on the looks of it, it may be an “art”. If proper functionality is in focus, then it is a learnt art, i.e. a craft requiring knowledge and skill in applying reasoning.
If (*) proper functioning of a circuit is affected by the 3D morphology of it’s physical implementation, then circuit layout should be considered by the electrical circuit designer an inherent part of his job.

George

(*)I am a bit sarcastic here. It is well known that it is affected. The question is if the “parasitic” capacitances and inductances due to component positioning are considered much more important than some parasitics due to component’s own construction.

There is little you can do about intrinsic issues, except control them as best possible and then work to minimize any potential for unwanted extras. Thus, layout is high on the list of things to do right.

Like a samurai coming at you, at the least defensible position, you must do the same with signal. Place the signal, in 3d, in the place where it is least interfered with. This, according to the hierarchy of it's potential for interference and in conjunction with it's hierarchy of importance in unimpeded generation.

Working on passive crossovers, re-doing ones that one feels are good and even redoing excellent ones (in an act of single cause analysis) is an excellent lesson to prepare for such things. (IME)

I recently found and amazing cure for some of these issues (it's a secret! )(for the moment) (fluoride free to boot, no artificial sweeteners) (JC told me the prelude to it, then I took it a step further)

Last edited by KBK; 4th June 2012 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 4th June 2012, 04:22 AM   #23647
KBK is offline KBK  Canada
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post


Hey, they use vibration to anneal large weldments, why not copper??

I'm just not sure if 4 aura shakers mounted to the plate is sufficient to force quantum tunneling through the boundaries..

j
true enough. One thing that shut the tongue waggers down in the world of audio, and audio rags and audio threads..is when John Atkinson related a story. First in the magazine (stereohile) and then on the stereophile forum.

The nay-sayers where screeching hard that day...

A story about RF engineers 'tuning' the copper bus in order to match/tune correctly. (out at a given transmitter)

They did it, this micro adjustment, by whanging on the copper bus, with a hammer.

"Yeah, but that's RF", they began to whine.

So I told them it was not a simple signal that they listened to with their incredibly complex ears (too bad about the meat between), it was and is a highly integrated and highly complex series of harmonics.

Which add up being a requirement for subtlety and correctness that exceeds the need for correctness of inter-related signals/flow in a RF chain..an RF chain and layout... that might need tuning of a bus bar with a hammer. This, Easily so.

But they continued to screech, as they did not understand. They had the screeching bit totally down, though. Gotta give them that.

(It is possible to write some of that off as oxide in threading and such, so it's not totally a clear case)(not enough data to provide exception of all other possibilities...)

Let's put it this way: Even a leaf can completely change the course of a bullet. Relational deltas become everything.

Last edited by KBK; 4th June 2012 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 4th June 2012, 01:33 PM   #23648
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Originally Posted by gpapag View Post
Ics:I am intrigued myself and I would like to ask Scott if during implementation of circuits within Ics they consider “3D effective space” (something like electromagnetic plain wave approach I wrote before)

George
Yes, we do a 3D extraction of bonds and package for giga-Hz IC's. No hammers needed, but when needed an Estwing framing hammer makes the most beautiful ringing sound..
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Last edited by scott wurcer; 4th June 2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 4th June 2012, 01:42 PM   #23649
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Once again this is the THD vs Frequency plot of the same amplifier with two different PC layouts.
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File Type: jpg Fixed PC THD jpeg.JPG (317.2 KB, 185 views)
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Old 4th June 2012, 01:49 PM   #23650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KBK View Post
true enough....snip...
Huh?? that was tongue in cheek...nothing true about it at all..

Quote:
Originally Posted by KBK View Post
A story about RF engineers 'tuning' the copper bus in order to match/tune correctly. (out at a given transmitter)

They did it, this micro adjustment, by whanging on the copper bus, with a hammer.
That on the other hand, is an accurate depiction of rf and solid copper busswork. And it wasn't oxide in threading...rf doesn't penetrate to the bolts, it's all surface.

They were changing the geometry of the conductors to alter impedance and prop velocity, that's all.

Same thing happens in solid state microwave hybrids. Since the small signal parameters of the semi's can only be close, the traces many times require tuning, either stubs or actual blobs of silver epoxy planted on the traces in historically useable locations. That technique was unfortunately, an "art", as it was not possible to apply a smith chart to the problem.

j
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