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Old 12th May 2012, 02:44 PM   #23091
Jakob2 is offline Jakob2  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Then google "alien abductions." Don't feel bad, though, there was at least one ueber-objectivist posting here who similarly didn't understand the difference between "distinction" and "preference."
Didn´t he really understand the difference or did you only think (or wanted to believe) that he didn´t understand.... ?

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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Probably, you, or anyone else, would hear no difference. That is the problem!
If bonsai gets proper training (under the specific test conditions) and includes meaningfull positive/negative controls than chances are quite high to confirm results from sighted listening tests in controlled listening tests (if there _exist_ perceptable differences between the DUTs).
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Old 12th May 2012, 03:01 PM   #23092
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SY,

There really are alien abductions. For a well documented case see isbn 0312925883!

ES !
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Old 12th May 2012, 03:38 PM   #23093
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Default Eagle Has landed

The A21 been running now for 48 hrs we shoot out with the Krell and the Bel Canto's this sunday , first impressions have the A21 having first serve ...

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Old 12th May 2012, 05:50 PM   #23094
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Bonsai, it would be even more interesting to do a double blind test with your amps and some of the worst audio equipment out there.
Well, not directly related to your question, but some general observations I have concerning comparing various pieces of gear on audio setups.

1. It is my experience that some people hear differences in certain items, like power cables, while others hear no differences.
Therefore, reports of others are of a very little meaning to me.

2a. Different audio setups sound initially, or basically, very much different from one another. This due to, aside budget considerations, because of different people have very different taste and personal preferences concerning sound. My own taste and preferences are markedly different from the majority of the local 'audiophiles' I know. There is probably one who have similar taste to mine, though not identical.
Therefore, reports of others are of a very little meaning to me, unless I know the taste and preferences of the one reporting.

2b. Out of the 'audiophiles', all over the world, there those whose main interest and preferences are for the 'audiophile' parameters of the sound setup; while there those whose main interest and preferences are for the 'musicality' of the sound setup. By 'musicality' I (and others) mean the degree the music reproduced is involving, exciting and convincing. I found out that 'musicality' of a sound setup cannot be correlated directly and definitely to any set of 'audiophile' parameters of the sound setup.
I call the first group 'audiophiles' and the second group 'musicophiles'.
There is yet a third group which I call 'equipophiles'; those are people who are impressed by the looks, cost and brand names, more than by the sound quality in itself.
There is yet a fourth group which I call 'technocrats'. Those are people who don't hear differences between different audio setups; or don't bother to relate to such possible differences – they are interested only in the technical details, specifications and measurements results of audio gear. Those people will never use a power cord, or an interconnect cable, other than the cheapest ones – because they don't have any 'scientific evidence', or published specifications, which indicate that a certain cable is better than another one. They either don't mind what they hear, or they don't trust their hearing.
People from each one of those four groups will have initially markedly different taste and/or preferences concerning sound and concerning gear for audio setup.
Even within the first two groups, different people have markedly different taste and preferences concerning sound.
Therefore, reports of others are of a very little meaning to me, unless I know the taste and preferences of the one reporting.

3. Any comparison made on an audio setup other than my own is meaningless for me. This is because different setups sound so much different initially. The initial difference in the 'sound signature' of audio setups which aren't my own is overwhelming and thus masking whatever I may consider to 'sound better', or 'sound less good'.
Therefore, reports made on audio setups other than my own are of a very little meaning to me.

4. The way a certain piece of gear sounds is largely dependent on the entire setup, even for the same person. For instance, a certain power amp sounded great on my first setup (having different loudspeakers), than on my second setup.
Therefore, reports made on audio setups other than my present one are of a very little meaning to me.

5a. The more a sound setup is treated, the more it will be revealing and the more 'small' differences will be noted.

5b. I observed that many 'audiophiles' invest only little, sometimes even nothing, on acoustic treatment – while acoustic treatment (along with 'voicing' the setup) are crucial to sound quality of any sound setup, sometimes even more than the actual gear of the setup.

5c. After having electricity treatment to my setup, differences between various cables (power and interconnects) are much more noticeable than before the treatment.
(The electricity treatment included dedicated power line to the sound setup, fed from a power phase that isn't used while I listen to music; and isolation transformers made in local transformers workshop to my order. Those isolation transformers are E-I Core, with a screen between the primary and secondary windings; the secondary winding is balanced [that is, it has a center tap which is connected to the ground]. Also there are capacitors RF filters before the primary and after the secondary windings. There are different isolation transformers to the analogue source and pre-amp, to the digital sources, to the AV section of the setup and to the power amp).

6. When I started to compare different pieces of gear to my audio setup, I did it by blind tests. I had a friend who switched the different pieces without me knowing which one was active at any given time. Later on, as I gained more experience; and as I became more familiar with the overall sound of my audios setup; and as the setup improved – I found out that I don't need blind tests. I hear the very same differences, blinded and sighted alike. With certain combinations of pre-amp and power amp, there was a noticeable hum in my setup. I needed no blind tests to hear that hum. In the same way, I need no blind test to hear other differences. Also, I found out that the brand and costs of various pieces of gear have nothing to do with my preferences. For instance, comparing 'A', 'B' and 'C' power cables, or interconnects, many times I prefer the cheaper, or middle cost ones. I judge any piece of gear for my sound setup by it's sound quality and sound impact alone, regardless of brand, no brand and costs.
(I do not try anything which is beyond my financial ability to purchase it).

Therefore, such a comparison as quoted here: is totally meaningless to me.
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Old 12th May 2012, 05:53 PM   #23095
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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The ability to evaluate what one see's , hear and or read plays a big role too .....
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Old 12th May 2012, 06:33 PM   #23096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
The ability to evaluate what one see's , hear and or read plays a big role too .....
There is no doubt about it.
As much as different people have different taste and preferences, different people have different sensitivities and different people attach different meaning to perceived differences.
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Old 12th May 2012, 08:28 PM   #23097
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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Joshua_G,

Good post earlier with a astute observations! I like your classification of audio folks (philes, crats and phools).

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Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
There is no doubt about it.
As much as different people have different taste and preferences, different people have different sensitivities and different people attach different meaning to perceived differences.
So true.
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Old 12th May 2012, 09:22 PM   #23098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zman01 View Post
Joshua_G,
Good post earlier with a astute observations!
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by zman01 View Post
I like your classification of audio folks (philes, crats and phools).
That was NOT my classification…
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Old 12th May 2012, 09:45 PM   #23099
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua_G View Post
That was NOT my classification…
From your earlier post:

Philes: Audiophiles, Musicophiles, Equipophiles
Crats: Technocrats

Phools was meant to be all inclusive! No offence intented.
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Old 12th May 2012, 10:05 PM   #23100
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Audio playback can be a hobby as well as an activity. Some people would rather watch a football game, and if so, why not?
This 'audiophools' tag is an insult directed at people who like audio as a hobby or invest in a 'good' playback system. What if you went into the general public and used terms like sports-phools or ski-phools, etc. etc.? You might get a 'black eye'. '-) Yet, these people can get just as enthusiastic about their 'interest' and can throw lots of money at it.
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