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Old 11th May 2012, 04:33 PM   #23041
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Of course, you can put together a phono stage that will 'get you by'. Especially people who don't care much about phono reproduction, except for the odd record that that they have left over from the past. However, in hi end audio reproduction, we are trying for more.
More what? Some of you might say.
Well let me give you a comparable situation:
Let's say you need personal transportation, beyond a bicycle.
Let's assume that you don't have a lot of money to spend, or else you would prefer to spend your money elsewhere.
Well, you can buy a car, used, that will probably get you to were you want to go and back. Of course, it is almost impossible to build a car from scratch, but you could easily get a used one and fix it up. I did just that, after the firestorm destroyed my Saab Sonnet. I bought a used Porsche 924, with 135,000 mi on it. Then I went to work, cleaning, adjusting, fixing, and modifying the engine as much as I dared, to get a good facsimile of a REAL sports car. It did me fairly well for a few years, but I was always shown up by somebody with a Porsche Dual Turbo or a new Corvette. Still, I had a 'sports car' that responded well in normal, and some 'extranormal' driving conditions, BUT it was not a WORLD CLASS sports car, and I never said that it was equivalent to one.
It is the same with phono design. If you think that just ANY circuit will give you above average performance, you are mistaken. If you think that just any passive parts will behave as good as others, you are again, mistaken.
If you want a phono stage just for playing an occasional record, and your phono cartridge is a cheap Shure or its equivalent, with an inexpensive turntable, then by all means make your $100 design, or better yet, buy one already built. There are tremendous 'bargains' these days, making it yourself is a waste of your valuable time. '-)
What I do, is try to make World Class audio equipment, much like World Class autos are made that cost up the $1 million dollars or more.
I WANT to be written up in the magazines as a 'wonder to behold' with amazing performance, and a lot of pleasure to listen through. Unfortunately, this costs TIME to design it properly, EXPERIENCE to know what to design, MONEY to buy the costly active and passive parts, and especially the beautiful and fancy chassis that is necessary to the customers who buy this sort of product. They are fussy, just like a Mercedes owner might be about the exterior paint on an automobile.
This all adds up to the final cost of the product being 'outrageous', but it can't be done to the same quality level for any less.
Try to do it, yourself, if you are successful, perhaps 'the world will beat a path to your door'.

Last edited by john curl; 11th May 2012 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:02 PM   #23042
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
Let's see you work for Uncle Sam. I pay taxes to fund them.

So we actually agree on something. I do pay for your salary!

(1e5/2e9=.005%!)
OK boss...I wanna huge raise... .001% would do me just fine..

j
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:32 PM   #23043
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OK boss...I wanna huge raise... .001% would do me just fine..

j
No problem, just run it up the chain of command! But I presume you mean you want a raise of .001% of your current pay. As that is around $1.00 I think it will go through!
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:33 PM   #23044
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People ask me on a regular basis, why I continue to talk about hi end audio design, and repeat what I have stated in print over the last decade and more.
Well, it is the amount of 'misinformation' that is put out about my colleagues and their products as well as my own. One would think that if, for example, I believed that the cuisine of a certain restaurant was overpriced and easily equalled at a small fraction of the price, I would not PICKET the restaurant. I would just avoid it, or offer others a way to get the same or better cuisine much more cheaply.
It would be like if I was a proponent of '2 Buck Chuck' because it is so cost effective, and I then openly sneered at anyone who invested in something more expensive, because I believed there was no real difference. And it would be as if I could PROVE it with a double blind test, so there! (sound familiar?)
Well this is why I continue make the case for what we do in hi end audio. I am like a hi end vintner who tries to make a 'World Class' product, who is continually harassed by the 2 Buck Chuck advocates. I hope you can see the situation the way I do. '-)

Last edited by john curl; 11th May 2012 at 06:36 PM.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:34 PM   #23045
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Especially people who don't care much about phono reproduction, except for the odd record that they have left over from the past
Just think of this. All great classic, opera, jazz, blues “performances” recorded in the past, records worth listening to, are just that: odd records left over from the past.

All the rest Mr. Curl (c$$s, w$$es, h$$h end audio ) are for the ego and social status show-off. You know this. Therefore,

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However, in hi end audio reproduction, we are trying for more.
More what? Some of you might say.
Well let me give you a comparable situation:
What’s the use in verbally supporting this circus in here?


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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
…….What I do, is try to make World Class audio equipment, much like World Class autos are made that cost up the $1 million dollars or more.
I WANT to be written up in the magazines as a 'wonder to behold' ……..

….Try to do it, yourself, if you are successful, perhaps 'the world will beat a path to your door'…..
Again, wrong place. This is hobbyist’s playground ( and professionals immersed in their hobbyist mood).


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by all means make your $100 design
Now, we are talking! (Are you?)

George
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Last edited by gpapag; 11th May 2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:39 PM   #23046
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I am like a hi end vintner who tries to make a 'World Class' product, who is continually harassed by the 2 Buck Chuck advocates. I hope you can see the situation the way I do. '-)
No, you're like a high end vintner who tries to make a world class product, but admits that he is unable to tell the difference between his "world class" product and Two Buck Chuck in blind tests, the usual standard in the wine industry. He'd be ridiculed and his product would fail quickly.

As much hype and BS as there is in high end wine (and there's plenty!), it's not nearly as sick as the high end audio industry. Nor is its market base shrinking as quickly.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:42 PM   #23047
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If that is what you want, George, then you don't have to listen to me. Just buy my cheapest stuff and learn what can be made at a relatively low price. I might remind you that this thread has more 'hits' than any other, on this website. I must be saying something 'useful' to somebody out there. I do wish that they would come out of the 'woodwork' and give their feedback, because I do tire of being told that I am wasting my time here, both by my colleagues in hi end audio design, and by my critics, here.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:47 PM   #23048
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Cool stuff.

Nowadays, we're using articulated arms to measure positions of fiducials to +/- 15 microns, and an array of 12 laser trackers to get +/- 1 micron. (in a room controlled to +/- .5 degrees C.)

My own work involves that as well as 11 axis motion control to +/- 100 microinches using 7 axis in splined interpolation and 4 followers using algorithm blocks.. The math for this stuff is pretty interesting, no??

j
Fascinating, but it will be pretty slow I imagine.
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:50 PM   #23049
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Some scientists would challenge your assertion SY that there is ANY significant difference between cheap and expensive wines. AND they will show this from the results of a double blind test.
For everyone else, I am a good listener, but I am NOT a great listener. Perhaps, when I was younger, I could put my listening against anybody, but that was some decades ago. That is WHY I rely on others, especially outside the companies that I consult with. That is WHY we use magazine reviews to give us the necessary feedback as to where we are doing something right.
To call hi end 'sick' is just a personal insult to me as well as rest of the hi end audio industry. If you find me 'sick' then just ignore me. What is it to you, to compromise my opinion on every turn?
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Old 11th May 2012, 06:54 PM   #23050
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Some scientists would challenge your assertion SY that there is ANY significant difference between cheap and expensive wines.
Utter bilge. Preference may not follow price, but nearly any two wines can be distinguished blind.
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