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Old 16th February 2012, 04:40 PM   #20601
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Buckingham does discuss WHY there are the differences in this graph in his book.
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Old 16th February 2012, 04:43 PM   #20602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
That graph, in NO WAY looks like the graph in Buckingham's book.
From your statements, that's quite certain. So I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about. Their test results appear to be quite smooth and continuous.

They show a minima at about 210K, a peak at about 165K, another dip at 110K, seemingly consistent with your verbage. But H and K's graph of the individual frequencies vs temperature I posted previously doesn't match your verbage with respect to weird behaviour..so I certainly have to question the odd hypothesizings you provided.

Did Buckingham massage data from two sources?

Can you produce the graph you speak of?

jn
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Last edited by jneutron; 16th February 2012 at 05:11 PM.
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Old 16th February 2012, 04:47 PM   #20603
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Buckingham does discuss WHY there are the differences in this graph in his book.
Well??

jn
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:06 PM   #20604
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Well, what? Please, either get a copy of Buckingham's 'Noise in Electronic Devices and Systems' from your company library, and look at go to p.130 and look at the graph itself.
OR get the paper it is referenced from. Then you compare.
You should have better access to the IEEE archives through your company so that it doesn't cost you anything.
I am NOT the author here, I am just citing references.
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:17 PM   #20605
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ps... I've also used this technique for computer controlled ultrasonic welder where I needed to know exactly how much power was being dissipated by the load. The ultrasonic transducer/horn assembly has an unloaded Q of roughly 10,000, so requires extreme control of drive. A simple .1 ohm resistor for current monitoring caused excessive phase shift of the measured voltage, which resulted in an incorrect measure of power delivered vs power reflected. So I used 3 pieces of 300 milliohm resistors in parallel, tightly packed body to body, and ran the v tap wire up the physical center between the 3 cylinders. Worked perfectly.
Cheers, Jn
This is a large part of why I proposed the use of multiple fuses in parallel for an amplifier's AC connectivity, rather than the one fuse. The sonic advantages are as obvious as can be regarding the development of complex harmonic structures in the final sonic presentation ...as they were (regarding base functionality) with your application. The fuses, like your application, are going to need to be from the same batch, design, build, etc..if it is going to be workable.
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:18 PM   #20606
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Ran outta editing time..

JC..

I certainly have to question the odd hypothesizings you provided. These statements...""This is where reality defies engineering approximation "", and ""It is like the excess noise on whatever device they used is composed of a series of wobbles, perhaps quantum related, and no smooth curve."" are certainly not supported by H and K's graphs..

That's why I asked about what exactly Buckingham was using for data. Using two independent and uncorrelated sources spliced into one graph could certainly do weird things to a graph...

From the looks of H and K's data, there doesn't appear to be anything weird happening. Just the normal carrier recombination funnies that happen in a cryo environment.. I've had my share of those, Vf at 4.5 Kelvin running 3 to 30 volts, now that's weird..

jn
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:21 PM   #20607
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Originally Posted by KBK View Post
This is a large part of why I proposed the use of multiple fuses in parallel for an amplifier's AC connectivity, rather than the one fuse. The sonic advantages are as obvious as can be regarding the development of complex harmonic structures in the final sonic presentation ...as they were (regarding base functionality) with your application. The fuses, like your application, are going to need to be from the same batch, design, build, etc..if it is going to be workable.
Multiple fuses in that application have nothing to do with what you copied of my work.

I used the null location of the current centroid to place a tap wire for measurement of the resistance without creating a loop for trapping of time varying flux, that flux causing out of phase voltage by induction. And all the induced voltage was the primary frequency, not any harmonics. Multiple fuses has nothing to do with the terminal voltages present across the fuses, other than a simple reduction in resistance that could be had by using a larger fuse.

jn
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:31 PM   #20608
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Multiple fuses in that application have nothing to do with what you copied of my work.

I used the null location of the current centroid to place a tap wire for measurement of the resistance without creating a loop for trapping of time varying flux, that flux causing out of phase voltage by induction. And all the induced voltage was the primary frequency, not any harmonics. Multiple fuses has nothing to do with the terminal voltages present across the fuses, other than a simple reduction in resistance that could be had by using a larger fuse.

jn
If I didn't explain myself fully, John, that does not mean that I'm wrong. It merely means that there is room for misinterpretation. And when you and I address one another, that is the road it goes down, most times. I understand that your job and work requires specifics and potentials to be fully addressed, but mine does not. One might consider that you are in that life and place as this is complementary to how you are wired.

I can accept that differential.

My capacity to wander is what takes me into different areas, questions, answers and solutions. It does not mean that I'm wrong, but that the back and forth probably does not satisfy your I/O system.
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:32 PM   #20609
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I do not understand your "not smooth" comments. The graphs in Haslett and Kendall are quite smooth and continuous.

What exactly did Buckingham print??

jn
This is the classic generation-recombination noise behavior, if you want I can post dozens of plots from many vendors. It is not per se 1/f noise but a special case of a dominant type of recombination center with a time constant that has an activation energy. You can literally change some devices 10 degrees and get 100X the noise. It's spectrum is Lorentzian with a time domain apperance of a random telegraph signal.
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Old 16th February 2012, 05:34 PM   #20610
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Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

From the looks of H and K's data, there doesn't appear to be anything weird happening. Just the normal carrier recombination funnies that happen in a cryo environment.. I've had my share of those, Vf at 4.5 Kelvin running 3 to 30 volts, now that's weird..

jn
Thru what materials, John, if you would be so kind?
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