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Old 8th July 2011, 01:25 AM   #13541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
And the same goes for double blind testing. As someone pointed out, double-blind testing gave us the MP3. I would rather occasionally make a mistake in my sighted tests (which I rarely do) than fall prey to a mindset that gave us MP3.
Bad example loaded with emotional and value judgements, let alone expectation bias. If the propeller-heads set up a DBT I will fail and my stuff will sound like a 20W T-amp. Maybe we should just wait till I can join you at the CES, discussions like this lead nowhere.

320K MP3 vs lossless is a tough one for me, usually a wash and I just want to listen to the music.
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Old 8th July 2011, 01:46 AM   #13542
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I personally really hate MP-3, in fact, I can barely tolerate normal CD, except when the CD playback device is really, really, high quality. Wasn't JJ responsible for MP-3, or am I mistaken?
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Old 8th July 2011, 01:53 AM   #13543
SY is offline SY  United States
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Dr. Johnston was one of the people involved, if memory serves. And apparently did a good job, the technology has dominated the market- for most people, the small loss in sound quality is outweighed by the convenience. I don't use them since I'm one of the small minority who are fanatic about sound quality, but I can understand why they're popular.
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Old 8th July 2011, 02:15 AM   #13544
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Dr. Johnston was one of the people involved, if memory serves.
Yes, he was.

And I'm still curious as to just what Charles believes his "mindset" was.

He's never passed it off as any sort of high fidelity format nor has he ever claimed that there's no audible differences between MP3 and non-lossy digital.

So I've no idea just what this seemingly nefarious "mindset" is that Charles is speaking of.

se
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Old 8th July 2011, 03:17 AM   #13545
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Hi Charles,
Count me in as a member of the 10,000 hrs and above club. From many experiences over the years listening to cables and other assorted "improvements", I can say that most of these did not make any improvement unless there was a specific problem that whatever design addressed. You have no idea how many different speaker cables I have had to evaluate, how many interconnects, power transformers and other imaginative things. Way back just after selling my shop, my wife jokingly mentioned the idea of cable lifts as a money maker. We both had a good laugh over that, and to our horror they became a tweak in real life.

You posts recently have saddened me to some extent simply because I thought you designed good equipment. Hearing that your beliefs include such fringe subjects for audible improvements changes my view of your products. Instantly, I fear you are paying lip service to current and past fads for market share. Either that, or you truly believe these things and your customers will suffer for it.

Customers are funny. As long as you can keep them interested and believing you will get rave reviews. Note that these reports are generally overly positive. However, once they actually begin to understand how things work and listen to lower priced (but properly designed) equipment, you will not hear a peep from them. No negative press simply because no one wants to admit when they have been taken in. So all "star designers" will ever hear are gushing prose. In short, all touch with the real world has been lost. Remember that this club is an exclusive one where everyone mutually supports common misconceptions and each other. People who listen honestly with no investment in what the outcome is would not fare well in your club.

Quote:
Subjective reviewers are open minded, and the best of them are usually correct.
Too many examples out there where this has not been true. This statement can not stand against even the slightest examination. In fact, there are normally very real pressures at work when the average person is reporting on what they hear. It's a fact that anyone who is believed to be a skilled (trained?) listener will strongly influence less informed / practised individuals. In fact, the reaction is to agree with the "expert" no matter what they really hear.

It's a perfect setup. If individuals can't hear it, then their systems may not be good enough to "reveal the truth" (first defence). Then it's the environment, the software (LP - CD - whatever), their own ability to hear, or the lack of training. On and on it goes, with the leaders never really having to stand up to scrutiny. "This is what I heard, can't you hear that?!!" Subjective statements are generally fairly safe for the person making it. Entire well paid careers have enjoyed this business plan. Seen enough of that myself. Ego centre.

Quote:
I don't need a piece of test equipment to tell me what I hear any more than I need a piece of test equipment to tell me what food I like
Well, of course not! The criteria is, "what I like". There is nothing there dependent on how any equipment actually performs. Review magazine reports? Get real! If you hang on a "Class A" rating from some of these, your life really is in shambles or you're participating in the fraud machine that the general population has tired of. However, the right test equipment testing the right things will show you where a problem is with sound equipment. In fact, proper testing along with listening will always result in a better sounding product. Testing the wrong things with equipment not up to the task will lead you down the wrong road as surely as the designer and yes men will through listening only. History is full of examples, especially in California it seems. Let's all suspend reality and be happy.

To your continued success Charles.
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Old 8th July 2011, 04:19 AM   #13546
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Count me in as a member of the 10,000 hrs and above club. From many experiences over the years listening to cables and other assorted "improvements", I can say that most of these did not make any improvement
You must have been listening to the wrong cables.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
You posts recently have saddened me to some extent simply because I thought you designed good equipment. Hearing that your beliefs include such fringe subjects for audible improvements changes my view of your products.
Does the "goodness" of my equipment designs depend on your personal feelings about my personal feelings about accessories?

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Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Instantly, I fear you are paying lip service to current and past fads for market share. Either that, or you truly believe these things and your customers will suffer for it.
Do you really think that we gain market share by selling wood blocks?

And yes, I truly believe in them or we wouldn't sell them. Why do you think our "customers will suffer for it"?

Do you think they will be ripped off of the $5 that they sell for? (We only make $0.30 out of that $5.00.)

If that is too much money, I have often made postings saying that one can purchase 50 wood blocks for $15 at the Target store in the form of the game "Jenga". Surely that is not a rip-off. Even if they hear no difference they will still have a useful game to play with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Customers are funny. As long as you can keep them interested and believing you will get rave reviews. Note that these reports are generally overly positive. However, once they actually begin to understand how things work and listen to lower priced (but properly designed) equipment, you will not hear a peep from them.
So everyone who purchases high-performance equipment is a fool, and the emperor is not really wearing any clothes, and nobody has any judgement of their own, they just follow the fads in the magazines?

You must live in a weird neighborhood. Customers in Colorado are much more demanding than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Too many examples out there where this has not been true. This statement can not stand against even the slightest examination. In fact, there are normally very real pressures at work when the average person is reporting on what they hear. It's a fact that anyone who is believed to be a skilled (trained?) listener will strongly influence less informed / practised individuals. In fact, the reaction is to agree with the "expert" no matter what they really hear.

It's a perfect setup. If individuals can't hear it, then their systems may not be good enough to "reveal the truth" (first defence). Then it's the environment, the software (LP - CD - whatever), their own ability to hear, or the lack of training. On and on it goes, with the leaders never really having to stand up to scrutiny. "This is what I heard, can't you hear that?!!" Subjective statements are generally fairly safe for the person making it. Entire well paid careers have enjoyed this business plan. Seen enough of that myself. Ego centre.
A slight variation on the preceding topic. Now you are saying that the magazines set up a big scam from the beginning, knowing that people would follow them like sheep. In the meantime, they get so rich that they fly around in private helicopters, and vacation in Europe whilst flying the Concorde because there is so much money to be made off these poor suckers. Whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
Well, of course not! The criteria is, "what I like". There is nothing there dependent on how any equipment actually performs. Review magazine reports? Get real! If you hang on a "Class A" rating from some of these, your life really is in shambles or you're participating in the fraud machine that the general population has tired of. However, the right test equipment testing the right things will show you where a problem is with sound equipment. In fact, proper testing along with listening will always result in a better sounding product. Testing the wrong things with equipment not up to the task will lead you down the wrong road as surely as the designer and yes men will through listening only. History is full of examples, especially in California it seems. Let's all suspend reality and be happy.
Now your arguments break down completely. First you say that if a magazine likes your product that it is a "fraud machine that the general population has grown tired of". Next you say that proper testing will allow one to design problem-free equipment (whatever that is).

Next you start to gyrate. You throw in listening along with the "proper testing", the combination of which "will always result in a better sounding product".

Really???

What if the person listening is deaf? What if he has never heard live music in his life? What if he likes music but has never listened to anything besides a boom-box? Will just any old listener do? Or does it have to be a special listener? And who decides what makes a listener special? And how do we know that we will like the sound of the product that this special listener helps to design?

After a couple of nonsensical sentences, you insult everyone living in California and imply that people there don't use test equipment to design and instead rely on "yes men" to substantiate their subjective listening impressions. Sounds like SY, no? (He lives in California.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by anatech View Post
To your continued success Charles.
Uh, sure, Chris. Whatever you say. Oh, by the way, would you be interested in purchasing some wood blocks?
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Old 8th July 2011, 04:25 AM   #13547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Sounds like SY, no? (He lives in California.)
Really???
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Old 8th July 2011, 04:45 AM   #13548
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Sy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SY View Post
Dr. Johnston was one of the people involved, if memory serves. And apparently did a good job, the technology has dominated the market
Yet another stellar piece of accurate research and information.

Or maybe not?

JJ may have been involved with ASPEC (if I remember our ABX/DBT debates over at the Audio Asylum, JJ was actually working with AT&T for what would have likely been ASPEC and later developments, but I would not insist on it).

The MPEG audio compression system is based on Musicam and is a pure european development, the german Institute fuer Rundfunk Technik and the Frauenhofer institute where two of the main players, MP3 especially is almost purely developed by the Frauenhofer institute (and more precisely Karlheinz Brandenburg) as extension to the earlier MPEG audio compression standards which basically standardised Musicam...

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Old 8th July 2011, 04:47 AM   #13549
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Scott,

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
Charles Thorsten, Have you never had a friend or good customer who just didn't hear it with you there?
First, I do routinely employ blind tests, however not according to ABX setup and I use more interesting metrics in my tests as I am not asking "are they different" but "which is preferable". If a number of people, in blind testing reliably prefer A over B and give similar descriptions of the sonic differences hear I am willing to spend the extra money for A (even if it means re-designing PCB's or paying 10 cent per resistor instead of one).

At AMR we did a long series of comparison tests between passive components using a specially build version of Kondo's M-7 preamp where all components are on tagstrips and can be easily changed and where each and every component group (up to six options) can be switched between.

It is very instructive to test components on this platform, blind of course, level matched of course.

What I do find is that several of our regulars seem to care about certain minutiae than I do (I can hear it and it becomes clear to me that I hear the difference, I just don't care), while I sometimes pick up other things in one bar of music, whereas our Goldenear's have to listen a lot before they spot the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
Or I am reminded by the Fremer/Carver adventure. Mike has probably put in 50000 hr. and by his own statement could not hear the difference. That Carver amp and resistor would save folks a lot of money. I have listened with some of the big magazine reviewers, you have to be kidding.
We just had a good example how well the "objectivist" side researches things. If I wanted to be negative I could claim you simply made things up, as there never was any Carver/Fremer story...

Moreover, I could regularly retell this one story here to claim that objectivists make up most of what they write on the spot, using this example.

But I feel generous today, so I shall not. Instead I shall let you just have the facts.

There was a case in 1985 where Bob Carver mimicked the sound of an expensive Tube Amp with one of Solid State Amp's, by altering his amplifiers behaviour (I suspect this involved a wide range of changes, not just "one resistor").

That BTW was long before Mr. Fremer started to work at Stereophile, involved where Gordon J.Holt and Larry Archibald in addition to Bob Carver. Reading the whole story is quite instructive, especially when the first attempt to make the two amplifiers failed to yield the result desired by Bob Carver (read, differences could be heard).

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
As long as I don't hear it, in my reality YOU are wrong.
No, you are completely wrong to claim that I am wrong. You can claim that you do not hear it, but that does not make me wrong in saying I hear it. It merely makes our experiences different.

Moreover, unless you sat right in my precise seat when you "did not hear it" you are not even in a position to say that you did not hear it, except in the sense that you where not present to hear or not hear it and hence lack any data upon which to base any comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott wurcer View Post
You force the issue of relativism, which does not matter in the end since I have never heard two "serious" systems that sounded the same (often dramatically different).
I force nothing. That's the beauty.

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Old 8th July 2011, 04:48 AM   #13550
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Hey Charlie: I just wondered if you have any theory why the last 10 feet of a power delivery system from the pole transformer has such a big effect on the dynamics--i.e. the power cord. I certainly believe that the inductance of the power cord will inhibit the current flow. Thus if the power cord is lower guage it will have less inductacne and there will be less resistance to current flow. But since it is only the last 10 feet why should it matter? Is is possible that there is some energy storage in the power cord? Or does the power accelerate though the low guage power cord giving you more speed of delivery?

I think the myrtle blocks provide a cunduction path and a sink for the stray mecahnical vibration in the circuit. If you try snubbing the vibrations with bluce tack it just killls the sound of the device--it will deaden the sound. I have friends that use a sandwich of ebony, birth playwood and then pine. Ebony conducts steel vibrations well, birth plywood will pick up the ebony vibrations and so on. YOu want to create a conduction path and a sink
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