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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:04 PM   #10381
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Still removing jaw from floor.
Yeah. I bet he looks at it differently when his medicine is involved

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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:07 PM   #10382
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And "Controlled test is just another word for 'bogus' test," is just religion.

se
Most "controlled" testing doesn't take into account how we hear. That's the way I see it.

The other day I was working with a relay in a circuit. It was buzzing but I couldn't hear it. I'd turn my head left or right and I'd hear a buzz. I couldn't figure out where it came from and thought it was in my head. Why would I think that ... well, I've heard a lot of sounds in my head, but that's another story.

Anyway, I turned the circuit on a few times, and wasn't sure if it was the circuit or not. I came back later that day and turned it on. Now I could make it out fine, and didn't have to turn my head at all. It was clearly coming from the relay.

I've had this experience often with new sounds. It's called habituation.

It take weeks of listening for the ear to unravel small differences in audio. Most blind tests don't take this into account, cause they don't know about it, don't care, or don't believe it, probably.

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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:12 PM   #10383
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Originally Posted by janneman View Post
The two DACs had a 1:10 price difference. As long as the two DACs were sitting there on the counter, the preference was 80% vs 20% in favor of the expensive one.
As soon as the DACs were moved behind the counter, out of sight, the preferences were 22% vs 78%, in favor of the cheap one.

There more to it, but I'll let you digest this first

jan didden
Yes, it's a condition reflex. But, that doesn't mean there wasn't an audible difference.

Beliefs have a powerful effect on how we hear, as you know Jan. And, I know that well.
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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:15 PM   #10384
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So long as the listening tests don't support the worship of false gods.
Who determines what is real and what are False Gods? How is it being determined? By ones' belief system?
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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:16 PM   #10385
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Most "controlled" testing doesn't take into account how we hear. That's the way I see it.
[snip]It take weeks of listening for the ear to unravel small differences in audio. Most blind tests don't take this into account, cause they don't know about it, don't care, or don't believe it, probably.

John
So, John, how does a sighted test take into account how we hear, knows about it, cares about it, believes it?

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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:18 PM   #10386
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Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
Yes, it's a condition reflex. But, that doesn't mean there wasn't an audible difference.

Beliefs have a powerful effect on how we hear, as you know Jan. And, I know that well.
Agreed and agreed. But if the difference in seeing or not completely reverses our audible preferences, how on earth can anyone trust a sighted test?

jan didden
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Last edited by jan.didden; 2nd March 2011 at 05:18 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:18 PM   #10387
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Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
It take weeks of listening for the ear to unravel small differences in audio. Most blind tests don't take this into account, cause they don't know about it, don't care, or don't believe it, probably.
Indeed.
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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:37 PM   #10388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnloudb View Post
Most "controlled" testing doesn't take into account how we hear. That's the way I see it.

The other day I was working with a relay in a circuit. It was buzzing but I couldn't hear it. I'd turn my head left or right and I'd hear a buzz. I couldn't figure out where it came from and thought it was in my head. Why would I think that ... well, I've heard a lot of sounds in my head, but that's another story.

Anyway, I turned the circuit on a few times, and wasn't sure if it was the circuit or not. I came back later that day and turned it on. Now I could make it out fine, and didn't have to turn my head at all. It was clearly coming from the relay.

I've had this experience often with new sounds. It's called habituation.

It take weeks of listening for the ear to unravel small differences in audio. Most blind tests don't take this into account, cause they don't know about it, don't care, or don't believe it, probably.
Yet in the 30 years or so I've been involved with audio, and the millions of posts I've read from others on forums since the mid-80's, I don't recall anyone ever saying it took weeks of listening before they could discern any difference between components or cables.

se
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Old 2nd March 2011, 05:55 PM   #10389
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Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post
Yet in the 30 years or so I've been involved with audio, and the millions of posts I've read from others on forums since the mid-80's, I don't recall anyone ever saying it took weeks of listening before they could discern any difference between components or cables.

se
It doesn't take weeks to discern that there are some difference. It may take weeks to pinpoint the benefit, or drawbacks, of those differences.
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Old 2nd March 2011, 06:17 PM   #10390
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So, John, how does a sighted test take into account how we hear, knows about it, cares about it, believes it?

jan didden
I just think a blind test needs to be done over a extended period of time. If you change the conditions in which a person is used to listening ( i.e. hide the components ) it changes how we hear and you can't expect the listener to do as well on a test.

We learn sounds and how we respond to sounds is all about beliefs formed from past experience. We may have a new experience that changes our beliefs.

I think a blind test has to allow a person to learn the just the sounds ( say sound A and sound B ) for a period of time with the components hidden. After people spent weeks with the components learning the sounds, if they hear a difference, then test to see if they really can identify this difference.
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