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Old 28th February 2011, 02:58 AM   #10261
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Yes, it could be. For example crosstalk. A certain crosstalk can even enhance perceived separation. Analog = Art, Digital = Science ?
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Old 28th February 2011, 03:00 AM   #10262
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Perhaps its vinyl's flaws that ARE its advantages in terms of what one prefers subjectively.

se
That's been put forward before and has not gotten very far. I agree BTW there are plenty of artifacts that create a false ambience or atmosphere in vinyl with low frequency wander in both AM and FM.
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Old 28th February 2011, 03:01 AM   #10263
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Compression, the next flaw. Makes pianissimo audible and fortissimo digestable.
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Old 28th February 2011, 03:03 AM   #10264
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Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
Yes, it could be. For example crosstalk. A certain crosstalk can even enhance perceived separation. Analog = Art, Digital = Science ?
Are art and science opposed? My CD's of Furtwangler's recordings of Wagner still capture the art.
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Old 28th February 2011, 03:08 AM   #10265
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In the Renaissance that was the ideal. Today interdisciplinary research is rare.
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Old 28th February 2011, 03:40 AM   #10266
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That's been put forward before and has not gotten very far.
Of course not. One would have to confront their humanity if they did. Audiophiles are not mere mortal beings.

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I agree BTW there are plenty of artifacts that create a false ambience or atmosphere in vinyl with low frequency wander in both AM and FM.
Yeah. And really, there's nothing wrong with a little soft focus and airbrushing. Hefner built an empire on it.

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Old 28th February 2011, 03:45 AM   #10267
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You won't find much hard evidence to support that.



Does this require your head in a vice and micrometer placement of your speakers? That's about 240kHz single pole and there are a lot high-speed op-amps that can do that at 26dB of gain easily.



Phase shifts of what relative to what?
The last performing space I did was NC15. A symphony orchestra in that space on stage and into the front of the listening area measured up to 109dba slow. That would have 129dbc peaks or more. So that is 114db dynamic range. If you understand the ear can perceive tones below the noise floor that would add another 10db or so. So just for that recording you need 21 bits. I think good practice would allow a few more for margins.

If you look at Fletcher Munson 60 db at 30 hz is equal loudness to -6 at 4000 hz that is 11 bits just to record the same perceived volume! Even with a dynamic range of 30 db you run past 16 bits.

Now if you listen to modern studio recordings, 16 bits is certainly enough. Quite often the folks who do the recordings are quite capable and utilize their medium well to get the best results possible.

A common misconception is that a symphony orchestra is louder than a rock concert. That is not quite true. A symphony takes up a lot of space producing that energy. If the total energy were compacted so you could measure it all at 1 meter from a point source then it would be around 130db. A rock concert aims for 102 db average (don't confuse that with the symphonies' peaks just mentioned) at 100 feet (or equal to 140db @ 1m). A good sound company will keep that to a maximum of 105 anywhere in the seating area.

For phase detection tests try a 6khz fundamental with a third harmonic that at 0 degrees of shift reaches it's peak at the same time as the fundamental. Then to make sure you are not hearing the level change compare say +/- 5 out to maybe +/- 60 degrees. See if you can hear the difference.

You do not need to put your head in a vise no matter how tempting the idea. Although putting your head in a vice is entirely your choice!

Yes there may be parts that meet my design goals but I haven't yet seen a system. Knowing the limits of transducers I would settle for the electronics including the recording system.

Last edited by simon7000; 28th February 2011 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 28th February 2011, 04:49 AM   #10268
hhoyt is offline hhoyt  United States
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Default Digital storage

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Originally Posted by Joachim Gerhard View Post
Here is a paper by Bob Stuart about how much bits and sampling rate we need.
http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Coding2.PDF
Thanks for posting the link, Joachim! Interesting paper for sure! One thing which has to be restated is that the 16-bit 44.1KHz system was settled on in the late 1970's when A>Ds and D>As and digital storage and BW were all really expensive and hard to make correctly. It was not chosen at the time due to any perception that it was perfect. I agree with one of the comments that 16 bit 44.1 KHz digital may even be overkill for general populous audio distribution (I mean look at how happy most are with low bit-rate mp3!!), but quite a bit (sorry for the punishment) more is needed in the original recording and mixdown to be truly lossless for many reasons, as we all know.

My experience doing 2-track mastering in well-designed studios agrees with comments by Ed, you can hear the noise floor (not digital black, but no signal, just dither) in a 16-bit master when the levels are set to the peaks are at or near clipping. But as Steve points out, due to cochlear desensitization, both extremes of the dynamic range cannot usually be experienced within a short time of each other.

Is the noise floor (and low-level distortion within) of a 16-bit system a problem? For me it never got in the way of function or enjoyment, but if you were designing a new storage or transmission standard, especially now in the day of inexpensive digital BW and storage, I would want it to be better than any expected use, with added margin for less-than-optimum level setting or peak limiting. From this viewpoint, the author's suggested criteria seem pertinent.

The take-home message for me in this discussion of dynamic range is it is not the limiting nor defining factor to what many consider to be a good sounding recording, although it may be with some. The relatively high level and impulse laden noise floor of some LPs I consider to be a superior listening experience proves this to me. Our search for the perhaps non-existent single factor which defines the audiophile experience must look elsewhere.

Good discussion, though! Chew on this: http://www.channld.com/purevinyl/index.html

Howard Hoyt
CE - WXYC-FM 89.3
UNC Chapel Hill
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Last edited by hhoyt; 28th February 2011 at 05:06 AM.
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Old 28th February 2011, 05:25 AM   #10269
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.........I bet it measured better with the IC in place.
You might be surprised, regarding input signal level of the power amplifier.
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Old 28th February 2011, 05:56 AM   #10270
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Hello Jan.
So if I was to send you two 15 second 96k/24bit wav files that sound subtly different, you can document that difference ?.

Dave.
If you can document that they sound subtly different.

jan didden
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