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Old 27th February 2011, 08:25 PM   #10241
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
The point is that there are issues that degrade the sound that are non-obvious.
Hearing noise at the listening position is rather obvious.

se
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Old 27th February 2011, 08:31 PM   #10242
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
My posts are falling behind, but I might pose an interesting scenario for some audiophiles. Let us say that you have a home playback system, composed entirely of vacuum tubes. Of course, that would be impossible for digital, but let's say you have a good vinyl record collection and truly enjoy it. Now, somewhere, at sometime, you found an electronic crossover with IC's in the high frequency thru-path, however it does virtually everything you could ask for in an electronic crossover. Do you think that you could detect a SINGLE IC/channel added in series with your all tube design, while playing an early Joan Baez recording? Let's ask, everyone. ;-)
Well I think it is very likely that it is measureable. Whether it is audible depends on the quality of the tube amp but my gut feeling says its also likely.
Although I wouldn't go for Joan Baez; I didn't find her records very well recorded

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Old 27th February 2011, 08:32 PM   #10243
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
My opinion is that 16 bits is not enough to cover the normal (Whatever that is) human hearing range. I think it really takes 26 bits.
Why? 96dB of dynamic range isn't enough?

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If you want to repeat Schroeder's experiment you can create .wav files that contain sine waves and harmonics. Be sure to keep the amplitude constant as you create files with different phase shifts. With a good monitor speaker you can see how much phase shift you can perceive.
I don't listen to sine waves.

Do you?

se
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Old 27th February 2011, 08:36 PM   #10244
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I'll stick with Joannie. '-)
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Old 27th February 2011, 08:44 PM   #10245
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Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post
Hearing noise at the listening position is rather obvious.

I don't listen to sine waves.

Do you?

se
Even power line noise with the dominant energy at 50 or 60 hertz just at or below the threshold of hearing there are artifacts that creep into the midrange. Swapping the mains plug is noted by many as improving the midrange! You are welcome to come up with any explanation you like to explain the results.

Yes I do listen to sine waves and their fourier combinations.
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Old 27th February 2011, 08:56 PM   #10246
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Well that's no problem at all. Measured specs can be compared and repeated and are a relatively 'objective' measure of how clean and transparent an amp processes it's signal. 'Sounds much better' is a very personal and taste-dependent (and about 100 other factors) so really says nothing about the 'quality' of the amp.
Indeed, sound quality is personal taste dependent and also, sometimes, system dependent. That is, the sound quality of a power amp may be dependent upon the speakers it feeds. Therefore, there is no scientific measure for "sound quality".

However, it seems that most people choose speakers for their sound system, between various options within their budget, according to how the speakers sound, not how they measure.

To me and to some other people I know, the same goes for amplifiers, cables, power conditioners and you name it.

The fact that there is no scientific measure for sound quality shouldn't dictate to me that I should choose amplifiers for my personal use only according to how they measure.

My personal sound system serves me to enjoy better reproduced music, not as a basis for scientific paper.

Placebo Effect? Yes, it is there. Yes, I know how to neutralize it (for myself).
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Old 27th February 2011, 09:02 PM   #10247
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Originally Posted by simon7000 View Post
Even power line noise with the dominant energy at 50 or 60 hertz just at or below the threshold of hearing there are artifacts that creep into the midrange.
If you can't hear that noise at the listening position, then what's the relevance?

Quote:
Swapping the mains plug is noted by many as improving the midrange! You are welcome to come up with any explanation you like to explain the results.
People note all sorts of similar things after doing all sorts of silly things, like putting photographs of themselves in their freezers, or placing magic crystals next to their speaker terminals, etc.

How do you explain those results?

Quote:
Yes I do listen to sine waves and their fourier combinations.
You miss the point.

What we can detect with single tones and what we can detect when listening to music are not one and the same.

And what bout my question concerning 96dB of dynamic range? Is that not enough? What is the effective dynamic range of human hearing? Is it even as high as 96dB?

se
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Old 27th February 2011, 09:23 PM   #10248
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
Let us say that you have a home playback system, composed entirely of vacuum tubes. Of course, that would be impossible for digital, but let's say you have a good vinyl record collection and truly enjoy it. Now, somewhere, at sometime, you found an electronic crossover with IC's in the high frequency thru-path, however it does virtually everything you could ask for in an electronic crossover. Do you think that you could detect a SINGLE IC/channel added in series with your all tube design, while playing an early Joan Baez recording? Let's ask, everyone. ;-)
Do your think you could detect the 400 transistors the signal went through between the time it left the microphone and the time it was engraved on the vinyl? Imagine how many there are just in DolbyA professional. For those who know the old saw about how you woudn't want to see sausauges or laws being made, you can add that you wouldn't want to see how phonograph records were made if you are a fringe audiophile. The mess would shock you.
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Old 27th February 2011, 09:53 PM   #10249
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jan,

Which begs us to wonder why no one has tried seriously tried to identify mechanisms and measurements that identify bad sound. I find distortion and frequency response measurements at probably the bottom of the list.
We have had a few stabs at TIM, PIM...........and Mr.Curl's comments on higher order distortion products.............but to this day no one has put it all in a meaningful manner, and I bet a few artifacts or distortions have not been identified yet.

Till then I suppose we have to trust or ears or Mr.Curl.

Regards,

Jam
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Old 27th February 2011, 10:31 PM   #10250
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I would like to point out that the Vanguard recording of Joan Baez is all tubes. It was made in 1959. I chose it on purpose.
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