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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:22 PM   #10071
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Originally Posted by DF96 View Post
It could be suggested that some 'subjectivists' discard any explanation, preferring instead to believe that there is no current explanation. This enables them to retain their mysticism.
It could suggest that and it could suggest some other things.

So far it is you who claim that this is about mysticism, without any scientific evidence that the audible differences I speak about aren't real.

Don't you see how this statement of yours is far from any scientifically established fact?
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:25 PM   #10072
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One way to test whether someone has good grounds for their views is to challenge them. The more angry their response the weaker is their case.
Indeed, a 'scientific' way to detect placebo effect.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:30 PM   #10073
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we do however like to be able to reproduce those phenomena under controlled conditions with statistically significant results - preferably with independent replications

it would even be acceptable for just a subset of the “golden ears” population to be able to demonstrate any one of their “phenomena” in front of “objective” observers under controlled conditions to spark new perceptual research
This has been said for years, I see below you got one of the usual answers. I'd be happy with them peeking and me not. I could make up my own mind and finally know what they are talking about. Here I mainly mean things like precision resistors from different weeks being "obvious to anyone walking into the room".
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:36 PM   #10074
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real fact
Real is that you admit to spend cold hard cash on stuff like a +2C wall outlet, fancy power cables and interconnects.
Real also is that you admit having a limited budget to spend on your audio set.

Others are willing and able to spend a vast amount on gear, but reluctant to spend a dollar more on auxilliary stuff if there's no solid reasoning to do so.

Who cares what you think is real or not.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:36 PM   #10075
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And you haven't tried a motor alternator or static double conversion UPS yet? And you say everything counts? I just bought a nice one from Eaton for about $30,000. Excellent model. It's for a laboratory but it would work fine on a hi fi set. Now don't tell me you tried one of those cheap $300 line interactive UPSs and you didn't like it. That hardly counts.
As I wrote, everything may have an effect. That is, various loudspeakers, amplifiers, cables, isolation transformers and even power outlets have an effect' or can have an effect. Now, not all amplifiers and not all power outlets sound different, though some of them do.

That doesn't mean that I tried everything out there. I don't have $30,000 for anything, so I'm not going to try anything outside my financial resources. However, within my budget I definitely try various things, without any prejudice about what may work and what cannot possibly work. I was sure that power distributors cannot have an effect on my system's sounds, until a friend of mine demonstrated to me that it does.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:37 PM   #10076
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From experience I know that almost everything affects the sound of an audio system, though many times I don't know how and why. Even different power outlets have a big impact on the sound, though I have no clue why is it so.

What kind of power do you prefer listening to? I prefer nuclear power because it is highly analytical although I admit power from oil fired plants is more liquid. OTOH, power from coal fired plants can be rather grainy at times. And from batteries, absolutely chemical sounding, often very acidic.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:53 PM   #10077
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What kind of power do you prefer listening to? I prefer nuclear power because it is highly analytical although I admit power from oil fired plants is more liquid. OTOH, power from coal fired plants can be rather grainy at times. And from batteries, absolutely chemical sounding, often very acidic.

I assumed your favorite source was from natural gas.

Solar works best, followed by hydroelectric as long as there are distortion correcting circuits following the generators.

If you look at the actual construction of mechanical devices used to produce electricity you will see there must be gaps (or areas of non uniform flux density) due to the physical limitations of construction.

Audioxpress magazine has covered this in the past one really good piece by Chuck Hansen and a longer series by some other idiot.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 06:54 PM   #10078
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BUT THEY DON'T DO THAT! Can't you get it right? First of all, the placebo effect and all its manifestations are scientifically proven and explained.
I never said that the placebo effect isn't real, that it doesn't exist.

However, when someone says that the differences I hear are all due to the placebo effect, without knowing the procedure by which I determine audible differences – such a statement is a pure speculation, as far from scientific approach as it can be.

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Secondly, to accept statements by you or anybody else any half-way intelligent person would want to have some evidence that the reported phenomenon actually DOES exist, and a good way is to do controlled tests.
Once more, I have no interest in neither proving anything nor convincing anyone.

I didn't ask anyone to accept what I wrote just because I wrote it.

I'm satisfied by knowing that the procedures I take eliminate the placebo effect.

However, stating that what I hear is only due to placebo effect, without knowing the procedure I take, doesn't demonstrate any intelligence. If anything it may point at fear from the unknown, fear from phenomena we didn't learn about, or didn't read about in our text books. Fear that our beliefs, to which we are attached so tenaciously, may be proven wrong.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 07:03 PM   #10079
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Real is that you admit to spend cold hard cash on stuff like a +2C wall outlet, fancy power cables and interconnects.
Real also is that you admit having a limited budget to spend on your audio set.

Others are willing and able to spend a vast amount on gear, but reluctant to spend a dollar more on auxilliary stuff if there's no solid reasoning to do so.
Yes, there are people who will not spend an extra dollar unless their reasoning mechanism tells them it's reasonable.

I spend the limited amount of money I have on what have a beneficial effect on the sound of my system, effect determined by listening, not by reasoning.

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Who cares what you think is real or not.
No one should care,
However, those who claim that what I hear is only due to placebo effect:
1. Do care, they care enough to comment about it.
2. Write statements based on nothing but their speculations.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 07:05 PM   #10080
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What kind of power do you prefer listening to? I prefer nuclear power because it is highly analytical although I admit power from oil fired plants is more liquid. OTOH, power from coal fired plants can be rather grainy at times. And from batteries, absolutely chemical sounding, often very acidic.
Very intelligent statement.
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