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Old 21st February 2011, 03:28 PM   #10001
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Shut it... (SE, you I mean, not the thread ) .
Lots more about phono pickups to come.

Eric.
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Old 21st February 2011, 03:35 PM   #10002
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More on phono pickups! Wonderful!
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Old 21st February 2011, 03:44 PM   #10003
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Originally Posted by john curl View Post
IF you will ONLY Google, you can learn more about 7th harmonic and its 'problem' with the musical scale than anything that I can say here.
Ok, will do.

Eric.
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Old 21st February 2011, 03:55 PM   #10004
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Back in the days when I had a V-15 I wired my turntable with the direction of L and R cables reversed WRT each other and could never get center imaging correct.
One day a dealer showed me the sonic effect of reversing the direction of one line level interconnect and instantly I worked out what was wrong with my TT.
That night I modified my TT so that both channels were using the same type of cable running in the same directions and VOILA....center imaging became correct without using balance control that never cured the problem properly anyway.
Do cable low level signal effects become significant at low levels signals like phono feeds ?.

Eric.
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Old 21st February 2011, 03:56 PM   #10005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
As far as Kirkwood Rough is concerned and his library: I pulled the 1941 edition of the 'Radiotron Designers Handbook' to page 43 or so, and showed Kirkwood that 7th harmonic distortion was taboo then, as it is today. They had a special statement about it is being completely unmusical and that it MUST be designed below audibility. Check it out, all!
available from pmillett.com
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File Type: png harmonic distortion.png (36.9 KB, 762 views)
File Type: png harmonic distortion 02.png (54.2 KB, 741 views)
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Old 21st February 2011, 04:17 PM   #10006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john curl View Post
IF you will ONLY Google, you can learn more about 7th harmonic and its 'problem' with the musical scale than anything that I can say here.
What has the 7th harmonic to do with the musical scale?

If there's a "problem" with the 7th harmonic and the musical scale,then virtually every instrument out there has a "problem" with the musical scale.

What, when you hit middle C on a piano the piano just emits a nice pure 261.6 Hz tone?

Have we been doing it wrong all these years? Should music only be played using pure tones corresponding to the notes on the page, instead of instruments which produce gobs of harmonics, including the 7th?

se
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Old 21st February 2011, 04:18 PM   #10007
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John, thanks for posting this.

Quote:
With any system of amplification other than class B, the percentage of total harmonic distortion...decreases as the power output level is reduced.
Moreover the percentages of the highest order harmonics decrease more rapidly than those of the lower order harmonics as the power is reduced.
The use of negative feedback merely reduces the level of all harmonics in the same proportion and does not reduce their relative importance, except when the overload point is approached.
This describes amplifiers and systems that get 'shouty' as level is increased.
The fact that 7th harmonic is dissonant in the standard western musical scale is important.
How do our 'Eastern' and 'Asian' brethren perceive amplification systems playing 'Eastern' and 'Asian' music ?.
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Old 21st February 2011, 04:29 PM   #10008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post
What has the 7th harmonic to do with the musical scale?

If there's a "problem" with the 7th harmonic and the musical scale,then virtually every instrument out there has a "problem" with the musical scale.

What, when you hit middle C on a piano the piano just emits a nice pure 261.6 Hz tone?

Have we been doing it wrong all these years? Should music only be played using pure tones corresponding to the notes on the page, instead of instruments which produce gobs of harmonics, including the 7th?

se
The problem is that artificially produced 7th's do not belong.
The western musical scale is not regular and therein lies the problem when replay gear adds tones that should NOT be there.
Relative levels of harmonics defines timbre and any change in timbre is usually loudly apparent, especially any addition of the 7th which is a foreigner as Langsford-Smith and JC assert.

Eric.
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Old 21st February 2011, 04:55 PM   #10009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfeedback View Post
The problem is that artificially produced 7th's do not belong.
Ideally, NO artificially produced harmonics belong. So what makes the 7th particularly special?

Quote:
The western musical scale is not regular and therein lies the problem when replay gear adds tones that should NOT be there.
If the western music scale is the reference, then virtually every instrument out there adds tones that should NOT be there.

Quote:
Relative levels of harmonics defines timbre and any change in timbre is usually loudly apparent, especially any addition of the 7th which is a foreigner as Langsford-Smith and JC assert.
It's only a "foreigner" when one looks at it with respect to the western music scale which is based on pure tones. In which case all harmonics are "foreign" as well as any instrument which doesn't produce anything but pure tones.

When looked at from the perspective of the actual instruments we use to perform music, the 7th is no foreigner at all.

So this idea that the 7th is particularly special is rather absurd if you ask me.

se
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Old 21st February 2011, 05:05 PM   #10010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy View Post
Ideally, NO artificially produced harmonics belong. So what makes the 7th particularly special?



If the western music scale is the reference, then virtually every instrument out there adds tones that should NOT be there.



It's only a "foreigner" when one looks at it with respect to the western music scale which is based on pure tones. In which case all harmonics are "foreign" as well as any instrument which doesn't produce anything but pure tones.

When looked at from the perspective of the actual instruments we use to perform music, the 7th is no foreigner at all.

So this idea that the 7th is particularly special is rather absurd if you ask me.

se
Looks like according to the Harmonics chart a few posts back, it shows that the 7th as the first harmonic that doesn't fall on the natural (Western) scale (laying between G'' and C''').


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