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Old 15th October 2001, 01:15 AM   #1
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I am a Lowther and electrostatic speaker enthusiast. I used to distribute Lowthers here in Australia. Are there any really 'Full Range' drivers larger than 8" diameter that do not need cross-overs.
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Old 19th January 2002, 11:00 PM   #2
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Hello Mohan.











I also am new here, still seeking the turntable/vinyl section









Quote:
Are there any really 'Full Range' drivers larger than 8" diameter that do not need cross-overs.












yes, there are some. Supravox has atleast two different drivers and different motor choices, permanent magnet (ferrite or alnico) and recently, field coil motors. They have the reputation to have random manufacturing quality so I did not consider them.







Some Lowther clones exist, I have the German AER in mind and the fancy Reps driver.



LothX also has a fullrange driver but they do not give it to DIY people.







And then there is the Fertin FLB 20EX. This driver has a field coils and works extremely well in an open baffle. I am currently awaiting my Fertins and trying to get my Lowthers sold.







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Bernhard
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Old 25th January 2002, 10:18 PM   #3
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I have heard of Fertin. But I have not had the opportunity to listen to a pair. Are you planning to build horns? I shall await your impressions.

Mohan
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Old 26th January 2002, 12:22 AM   #4
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Mohan,
I plan to run them an a 90cm wide open baffle with a Linkwitz-style open baffle subwoofer.



The Fertins are made for this if you look at the parameters.

They have a funny centering suspension with very high Q: a piece of 0.5mm thick epoxy PCB cut to a circular leaf spring.



As the leafsping is not airtight, you will experience noise from that if using the driver in a horn, I am convinced.



Having had a Lowther Acousta for years now and having done a long-term experimant with a good midrange driver operated in an open baffle, I doubt I will ever go back to enclosures of any kind. The experiment was meant to take an hour, it took six weeks and i could not convince me to end it.



At the dealer/distributor, I had a 5-hour long listening session to try out if there is any listening fatigue with the Fertin and the own equipment I brought. Not a tiny trace and I ordered them. Not cheap but worth it.
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Bernhard
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Old 26th January 2002, 12:48 AM   #5
subwo1 is offline subwo1  United States
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Hi dice, I dislike any resonances in a speaker's response curve also. I think the ideal speaker would isolate all back radiation from the listener by an infinite baffle. Resonances have been fatiguing to me, too.
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Old 26th January 2002, 11:14 PM   #6
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Yes, subwo1,





Quote:
... infinite baffle ...




but then there is this thing called soundstaging.


I like the soundstage produced by a properly placed dipole speaker very much.



Hmmh, I do not listen to resonances, frequncy response and the like, I listen to music; AFA music is concerned, the Fertin in open baffle mode is extraordinary; µdynamics are just incredibly natural.



This is partially due to open baffle operation. Try it out yourself , take an old door, saw a hole in it for a, say 5 to 8" paper cone speaker in it, hook it to your amp, sit down, enjoy.



The Fertin field coil speaker gives a maximum of course as field coil speakers have their own beauty and as Qts optimum can be adjusted by supply voltage, but any given speaker with a Qts in the range of 0.4 to 0.5 run in open baffle mode brings you quite far on this road and produces sensations unobtainable with an enclosure speaker.
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Old 27th January 2002, 02:46 AM   #7
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Bernhard,

Thank you for educating me on Fertins. Is the transient response of Fertin similar to that of Lowther or is it more like a Tannoy or PHY?

My experience and feelings about open baffle are the same as yours. When I was the Lowther distributor, I used to test all drivers that passed through my hands. I also used to set them, facing up towards the ceiling and play music. The sound is always so open with very low colouration …like my electrostatics at home. I used to say to myself and to others that it was a crime to mount these drivers in any enclosure.

But then… purists like Lowther fans (myself included to some degree) would not entertain the suggestion of multiple drivers and crossovers etc…etc..

Why do you need 90cm baffle boards when you have open baffle subwoofers? Why not say 40cm? Does this have more to do with your crossover frequency than with the Fertin driver? Just curious and for my knowledge only please.

Musical instruments are made to exploit resonances in their body structure. Their radiation is not confined to frontal modes only. It is the recording engineers who doctor the natural sound of these instruments to exploit our binaural senses and the mainstream market. Most recording engineers that I deal with agree with me on this. However, they have to produce material that is acceptable to the producer. Compression and rarefaction of air should not be obstructed both at the recording and reproduction stages. What I am saying is that there is no need to confine ourselves to frontal radiation only.

By the way, I noticed that you keep in touch with Allen Wright. He is a brilliant engineer. I used to talk to him many years ago while he was in Sydney developing his Vacuumstate amps. Allen made an AM tuner which most of us here in Australia regard as one of the very best tuners ever made.

Mohan
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Old 28th January 2002, 12:59 AM   #8
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Hello Mohan,





Quote:
Originally posted by Mohan Varkey


Thank you for educating me on Fertins. Is the transient response of Fertin similar to that of Lowther or is it more like a Tannoy or PHY?




Pleasure, I want to advertise for this exceptional driver. The driver's manufacturing quality is like seen from Altec or JBL in their best days (if not better).





Transient response is breathtakingly natural and I would guess, considerably better than a Lowther PM6A, vastly better than any Tannoy I heard. Vastly better than the Westminster Royal my brother-in-law owns. As I experineced it, the Fertin is seduuuucing without using sweet colorations for this.





I cannot comment on the PHY, never heard it. My friend Hartmut's remarks about the PHY's colorations extincted any interest in the PHY on my side; I know Hartmut's preferences to be very close to my own ones.





Quote:
My experience and feelings about open baffle are the same as yours. When I was the Lowther distributor, I used to test all drivers that passed through my hands. I also used to set them, facing up towards the ceiling and play music. The sound is always so open with very low colouration …like my electrostatics at home. I used to say to myself and to others that it was a crime to mount these drivers in any enclosure.




Tried exactly this it out with 5 different midranges. It could be said about other speakers too. Particuarly the Lowther PM 6C was better than when mounted in an enclosure, but not as much as the other drivers (did not try it out with my own PM6A; intend to sell the Acousta and do not want to damage it's custom-made frontshield)





By its parameters the Lowther is meant to run in a horn; open baffle is a less than optimum solution allthe more as the lowther has an airtight inner suspension.





Quote:
But then… purists like Lowther fans (myself included to some degree) would not entertain the suggestion of multiple drivers and crossovers etc…etc..




Yes, right, so do I. But the Fertin is so terrific over the whole range that the missing range cannot be overseen. For 100% satisfaction a worldcalss sub is needed. An open baffle sub I presume.






Quote:
Why do you need 90cm baffle boards when you have open baffle subwoofers? Why not say 40cm? Does this have more to do with your crossover frequency than with the Fertin driver? Just curious and for my knowledge only please.




1st,


the sub is intended to used two 18inchers, 90 cm is the least width I can realize.


2nd


I want the option to switch off the sub, neighbor comaptibility for listening after 22:00, yanno and then the speaker should still have enough LF


3rd


I am afraid of the baffle step and do not intedn to have to correct it.


4th


I have atleast 3 valid reasons





Quote:
Musical instruments are made to exploit resonances in their body structure. Their radiation is not confined to frontal modes only. It is the recording engineers who doctor the natural sound of these instruments to exploit our binaural senses and the mainstream market. Most recording engineers that I deal with agree with me on this. However, they have to produce material that is acceptable to the producer. Compression and rarefaction of air should not be obstructed both at the recording and reproduction stages. What I am saying is that there is no need to confine ourselves to frontal radiation only.




Interesting. Agreed.






Quote:
By the way, I noticed that you keep in touch with Allen Wright. He is a brilliant engineer. I used to talk to him many years ago while he was in Sydney developing his Vacuumstate amps. Allen made an AM tuner which most of us here in Australia regard as one of the very best tuners ever made.




Agreed, he is a brilliant engineer.


Allen's and my preferences are not as well aligned as I thought for a long while. And we do not agree on some philosophical issues including design philosophy (probably a normal thing).


However, his RTP5 is a DIY kit preamp challenging the most expensive preamps on the market. It may not appear cheap, but it is riidiculously cheap compared to the current ARC, CAT, Spectral, Rowland Research or other fancy brands. his SE preamp (guess it meanwhile is called SVP, six valve preamp) is a killer for the money. And his cables also are gorgeous and very price-competitive. Look at www.vacuumstate.com .
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Bernhard
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Old 1st February 2002, 12:51 AM   #9
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Bernhard,

Thanks. I shall consider Fertin for my next project.

I am developing a tube amplifier for electrostatic loudspeakers. I need high stability Carbon Film Resistors(50-100pcs each). 5W rating in various values 50-100 pcs. Do you know where in Germany I may be able to purchase Beyschlag Carbon Films. Local Beyschlag distributor is not interested in small quantities.

Mohan
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Old 1st February 2002, 01:28 AM   #10
dice45 is offline dice45  Germany
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mohan Varkey

Thanks. I shall consider Fertin for my next project.
fine, I would love to have this gorgeous speaker to have more success,

But ... be aware a pair of the field coil speakers ai at about US$1500.




Quote:
I am developing a tube amplifier for electrostatic loudspeakers. I need high stability Carbon Film Resistors(50-100pcs each). 5W rating in various values 50-100 pcs. Do you know where in Germany I may be able to purchase Beyschlag Carbon Films. Local Beyschlag distributor is not interested in small quantities.


I help if I can; I am interested in a source for Beyschlag myself.

But, why are you after Carbon films? I always thought them to be inferior from my tests, and as one of my electronic wizards tell, they are not that stable.



But this resistor comparison was not as scientifically performed as my cap test, so I maybe fooled myself.

What tried out , carbon composite can sound quite pleasant, with metal film is is unpredictable, they can sound fine or like crap.

Metal oxide resistors turned out to be surprisingly good, particularly tantalum oxide, although maybe not as good as tantalum nitride.

but I would stick with Beyschlag metal film, they are fine.

In any case I would avoid magneitc resistors. All world class sounding resistors I had in a small listening comparison were non-magnetic. As it was with capacitors.

I tend to avoid any magnetic piece in my stuff, except chokes and trannies. I even avoid magnetic material for the housing or it's screws.
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