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Old 7th June 2006, 07:02 PM   #1
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Default Extraduction

Guys,

You may have noted that the Blowtorch IP thread has been closed and posts moved elsewhere (other stuff/off topic/moderation). We can post there at our hearts desire, as they are hidden and do not appear in the recent posts list.

This for me is the last straw. My last post there was:

quote:
Originally posted by moamps
Pavel, everybody's read The Old Man and the Sea.

As I keep saying in my posts that keep being deleted, things are bound to go very wrong when moderators take sides, delete unoffensive posts and/or put words into people's mouth that they didn't say or imply just so as to steer discussions in a direction more to their liking. That's not moderating. That's playing God.

Regards,
Milan

Janneman:
I am fully with you here Milan. We are now at the point that a member can just steal whole threads from this forum, cut out any posts from other people not to his liking, and post the result on another forum without impunity. Then, as people here rightfully protest that, THEIR posts get deleted.
That takes away any and all confidence that anybodies posts will be treated with even a minimum of respect. What is stopping me from copying threads from here, modify them to my liking to make me look good, and post them on my forum or homepage?

Jan Didden
/end of quote.


Let me amswer my own question at the end of the quote: Only basic decency stops us doing this kind of thing. Or so one would hope.

Mr Variac, would you be so kind as to disable my account? Thank you.

I wish you all good day.

Jan Didden
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Old 7th June 2006, 08:12 PM   #2
moamps is offline moamps  Croatia
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Jan:

DON'T LEAVE!!!! The only way things may ever change for the better is if more people honestly spoke their mind and insisted on some basic principles of fair-play being upheld. This place is in need of some constructive criticism that you've always provided, which is even more true now when certain moderators seem to be missing the big picture altogether.

Regards,
Milan
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Old 7th June 2006, 08:15 PM   #3
PMA is offline PMA  Europe
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A bit of overview, guys, would be greatly appreciated.

I think we know what we are in for
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Old 7th June 2006, 08:26 PM   #4
SY is offline SY  United States
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I echo moamps comments. Jan, I'd like you to participate in helping us make things better rather than just getting frustrated and walking out.
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Old 7th June 2006, 08:31 PM   #5
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The same here. Help us make it better Jan.
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Old 7th June 2006, 09:37 PM   #6
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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Certainly when such respected members are so upset, there is a problem.

Quote:
We are now at the point that a member can just steal whole threads from this forum, cut out any posts from other people not to his liking, and post the result on another forum without impunity.
Who did this? I rather doubt John Curl . Honestly, I would appreciate someone informing us of what has happened. From what I piece together, someone (dIY Hifi mods?) has copied OUR Blowtorch thread and posted it on DIY Hifi, but edited it to change meanings and attribute some posts to John that were by others?

It seems that we are the victims here, clearly that site has stolen the text. Why would you blame the moderators here rather than the ones there? And THEN threaten to go there? Just doesn't make sense.... Unfortunately anyone can copy text from any forum and post it. Why didn't you write a clear letter to the me explaining the problem? and your solution?

While it is certainly possible that mistakes have been made editing posts, the Blowtorch thread moved so quickly, that sometimes it would take us a while to review the posts for off topic or hostile comments, so members may not have been aware of thir deletion.
Why do members post sniping, childish attacks rather than stating exactly their objections and then leaving the thread?
Just refuse to participate in the thread, just walk away.
Isn't that what adults should do? A thread where no one posts would wither and die, solving the problem.

These aggressive comments take a lot of our mod time, and I should think that you would understand that we have lost some patience with members that feel they can play games and let us spend our time cleaning up after them.

As was suggested, I want to frankly state my understanding of what has happened, but I'm sure others who have a clearer idea of the situation and will enlighten us.

variac
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Old 7th June 2006, 09:49 PM   #7
moamps is offline moamps  Croatia
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How do you expect to take right moderating decisions when you first shoot and then ask questions? It shouldn't take a member to leave before you get willing to listen and learn.

Regards,
Milan
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Old 7th June 2006, 10:03 PM   #8
Zen Mod is offline Zen Mod  Serbia
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I have weak impression that janemman's and moamp's comments are not linked to happenings on other forum,but with some moderator (re)actions here,especially in few recent threads connected to JC........

I also have (maybe wrong?) impression that in last time few mods are acting sometimes too early or too strong ; I'll not give you examples in this mentioned threads,but I can give you example of my first and last sin bin vacation,where Pinkmouse send me just because I didn't agree with him that my intention in one post to curse.........he just twisted meaning of my post .........

I'm not crying here,I don't care for sin bin,and I don't care really for anything if that is not straight forward;

but -one thing is important-every mod must appreciate my opinion same as I appreciate his mod rights,at least 'till both sides are enough polite and argumentative.........

If moderator use arguments as "we don't have enough time" that's his problem , and that can not be a problem for any "common " member.

also-if somewhere exist any solvent problem why on earth only member can send a mail to mod,why mod can't send a mail to member,in mutual interest .........

or I'm wrong again?

and -yes-I'm special kind of member here,not so different from any other,and English is not my native and I always look at bright side of life


edit:

ah-and ,yes-I'm mod on some other forum,just in case that this will make me more equal amongst equal animals
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Old 7th June 2006, 10:32 PM   #9
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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Quote:
but -one thing is important-every mod must appreciate my opinion same as I appreciate his mod rights,at least 'till both sides are enough polite and argumentative........
If I could sum up my simple request, which I have repeated often, it would be as you stated: argumentative but polite. That's all I ask of the members, but it seems so difficult.....

Quote:
If moderator use arguments as "we don't have enough time" that's his problem , and that can not be a problem for any "common " member.
Yes, but some members create so much extra work


Quote:
also-if somewhere exist any solvent problem why on earth only member can send a mail to mod,why mod can't send a mail to member,in mutual interest .........

or I'm wrong again?
Absolutely right, and I have been writing to many members that expressed dissatisfaction, something that I feel was a new approach to try to understand their complaints and have encouraged the other mods to do likewise whenever actions are taken. This is taking a while to become habit but it WILL happen!

[/QUOTE]

Quote:
and -yes-I'm special kind of member here,not so different from any other,and English is not my native and I always look at bright side of life.
Well, english is my native language, but we have in common that we try for the bright side - maybe we'll suceed.


From moamps:

Quote:
willing to listen and learn.
Don't all members have this responsibility? - not just mods?


I have to work now, I have a job, (still) (so far) so won't be able to post again for a while

variac
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Old 10th June 2006, 02:58 AM   #10
kvholio is offline kvholio  Netherlands
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Just to make sure some people know where i stand:This is a copy of an e-mail i sent to Variac 08-06-2006 13:36 (i havent received a reply yet)

Hello Variac,
Can you clarify on your last e-mail please ?
You mean i should have mingled in the discussion that went on in the moderating-thread last night ?
I didn't because the discussion imo was about the John Curl-pdf etc., not about moderating.

Somehow i think that if the discussion hadnt been moved to moderating, Moamps(Milan) would have probably been in the sinbin now without having had his say.
As you hopefully understand by now i strongly believe in the freedom of speech.
I also understand that something like this forum can't be a true
democracy, there has to be someone in charge.
I have absolutely no problem with you deleting posts that are offensive, name-calling,swearing etc., but you already knew that.
The thing i had trouble with yesterday was your 'deleting Moamps posts like crazy' while he wanted to discuss things..
I just think its not the right solution. Why ?
For the people who ARE following the discussion: it makes YOU look bad.
The one who sees his posts getting deleted gets mad.He posts more replies because he feels he HAS to react.etc. etc.
This doesn't help you or him.
So why not move the discussion (since its off-topic in the thread it's in) and continue it elsewhere ?

Yesterday-evening the whole IP-discussion continued at Moderating .
imo this is off-topic.the IP-thread was closed . Finito.
If somebody wants to discuss that topic further, well he can start a new thread.
The topic imo was the deleting of Moamps posts , both the old one and the ones he posted yesterday .Thats what i tried to say
yesterday-evening but i guess noone was listening, including the moderators.
Even they went off-topic .

I know this is all easy for me to say, Variac, I also notice this reply got kind of lengthy and there's a lot of "i think" in it. Sorry for that ...
Please let me know your thoughts regarding this, as i want to be a constructive member, not a PITA- I kinda like this place, just think it can be even better.

With kind regards,

Klaas
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