Extraduction

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AX tech editor
Joined 2002
Paid Member
Guys,

You may have noted that the Blowtorch IP thread has been closed and posts moved elsewhere (other stuff/off topic/moderation). We can post there at our hearts desire, as they are hidden and do not appear in the recent posts list.

This for me is the last straw. My last post there was:

quote:
Originally posted by moamps
Pavel, everybody's read The Old Man and the Sea.

As I keep saying in my posts that keep being deleted, things are bound to go very wrong when moderators take sides, delete unoffensive posts and/or put words into people's mouth that they didn't say or imply just so as to steer discussions in a direction more to their liking. That's not moderating. That's playing God.

Regards,
Milan

Janneman:
I am fully with you here Milan. We are now at the point that a member can just steal whole threads from this forum, cut out any posts from other people not to his liking, and post the result on another forum without impunity. Then, as people here rightfully protest that, THEIR posts get deleted.
That takes away any and all confidence that anybodies posts will be treated with even a minimum of respect. What is stopping me from copying threads from here, modify them to my liking to make me look good, and post them on my forum or homepage?

Jan Didden
/end of quote.


Let me amswer my own question at the end of the quote: Only basic decency stops us doing this kind of thing. Or so one would hope.

Mr Variac, would you be so kind as to disable my account? Thank you.

I wish you all good day.

Jan Didden
 
diyAudio Member
Joined 2002
Jan:

DON'T LEAVE!!!! The only way things may ever change for the better is if more people honestly spoke their mind and insisted on some basic principles of fair-play being upheld. This place is in need of some constructive criticism that you've always provided, which is even more true now when certain moderators seem to be missing the big picture altogether.

Regards,
Milan
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Certainly when such respected members are so upset, there is a problem.

We are now at the point that a member can just steal whole threads from this forum, cut out any posts from other people not to his liking, and post the result on another forum without impunity.

Who did this? I rather doubt John Curl . Honestly, I would appreciate someone informing us of what has happened. From what I piece together, someone (dIY Hifi mods?) has copied OUR Blowtorch thread and posted it on DIY Hifi, but edited it to change meanings and attribute some posts to John that were by others?

It seems that we are the victims here, clearly that site has stolen the text. Why would you blame the moderators here rather than the ones there? And THEN threaten to go there? Just doesn't make sense....:confused: Unfortunately anyone can copy text from any forum and post it. Why didn't you write a clear letter to the me explaining the problem? and your solution?

While it is certainly possible that mistakes have been made editing posts, the Blowtorch thread moved so quickly, that sometimes it would take us a while to review the posts for off topic or hostile comments, so members may not have been aware of thir deletion.
Why do members post sniping, childish attacks rather than stating exactly their objections and then leaving the thread?
Just refuse to participate in the thread, just walk away.
Isn't that what adults should do? A thread where no one posts would wither and die, solving the problem.

These aggressive comments take a lot of our mod time, and I should think that you would understand that we have lost some patience with members that feel they can play games and let us spend our time cleaning up after them.

As was suggested, I want to frankly state my understanding of what has happened, but I'm sure others who have a clearer idea of the situation and will enlighten us.

variac
 
Official Court Jester
Joined 2003
Paid Member
I have weak impression that janemman's and moamp's comments are not linked to happenings on other forum,but with some moderator (re)actions here,especially in few recent threads connected to JC........

I also have (maybe wrong?) impression that in last time few mods are acting sometimes too early or too strong ; I'll not give you examples in this mentioned threads,but I can give you example of my first and last sin bin vacation,where Pinkmouse send me just because I didn't agree with him that my intention in one post to curse.........he just twisted meaning of my post .........

I'm not crying here,I don't care for sin bin,and I don't care really for anything if that is not straight forward;

but -one thing is important-every mod must appreciate my opinion same as I appreciate his mod rights,at least 'till both sides are enough polite and argumentative.........

If moderator use arguments as "we don't have enough time" that's his problem , and that can not be a problem for any "common " member.

also-if somewhere exist any solvent problem why on earth only member can send a mail to mod,why mod can't send a mail to member,in mutual interest .........

or I'm wrong again?

and -yes-I'm special kind of member here,not so different from any other,and English is not my native and I always look at bright side of life


edit:

ah-and ,yes-I'm mod on some other forum,just in case that this will make me more equal amongst equal animals :devilr:
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
but -one thing is important-every mod must appreciate my opinion same as I appreciate his mod rights,at least 'till both sides are enough polite and argumentative........

If I could sum up my simple request, which I have repeated often, it would be as you stated: argumentative but polite. That's all I ask of the members, but it seems so difficult.....

If moderator use arguments as "we don't have enough time" that's his problem , and that can not be a problem for any "common " member.

Yes, but some members create so much extra work ;)


also-if somewhere exist any solvent problem why on earth only member can send a mail to mod,why mod can't send a mail to member,in mutual interest .........

or I'm wrong again?

Absolutely right, and I have been writing to many members that expressed dissatisfaction, something that I feel was a new approach to try to understand their complaints and have encouraged the other mods to do likewise whenever actions are taken. This is taking a while to become habit but it WILL happen!

[/QUOTE]

and -yes-I'm special kind of member here,not so different from any other,and English is not my native and I always look at bright side of life.

Well, english is my native language, but we have in common that we try for the bright side - maybe we'll suceed.


From moamps:

willing to listen and learn.

Don't all members have this responsibility? - not just mods?


I have to work now, I have a job, (still) (so far) so won't be able to post again for a while

variac
 
Just to make sure some people know where i stand:This is a copy of an e-mail i sent to Variac 08-06-2006 13:36 (i havent received a reply yet)

Hello Variac,
Can you clarify on your last e-mail please ?
You mean i should have mingled in the discussion that went on in the moderating-thread last night ?
I didn't because the discussion imo was about the John Curl-pdf etc., not about moderating.

Somehow i think that if the discussion hadnt been moved to moderating, Moamps(Milan) would have probably been in the sinbin now without having had his say.
As you hopefully understand by now i strongly believe in the freedom of speech.
I also understand that something like this forum can't be a true
democracy, there has to be someone in charge.
I have absolutely no problem with you deleting posts that are offensive, name-calling,swearing etc., but you already knew that.
The thing i had trouble with yesterday was your 'deleting Moamps posts like crazy' while he wanted to discuss things..
I just think its not the right solution. Why ?
For the people who ARE following the discussion: it makes YOU look bad.
The one who sees his posts getting deleted gets mad.He posts more replies because he feels he HAS to react.etc. etc.
This doesn't help you or him.
So why not move the discussion (since its off-topic in the thread it's in) and continue it elsewhere ?

Yesterday-evening the whole IP-discussion continued at Moderating .
imo this is off-topic.the IP-thread was closed . Finito.
If somebody wants to discuss that topic further, well he can start a new thread.
The topic imo was the deleting of Moamps posts , both the old one and the ones he posted yesterday .Thats what i tried to say
yesterday-evening but i guess noone was listening, including the moderators.
Even they went off-topic .

I know this is all easy for me to say, Variac, I also notice this reply got kind of lengthy and there's a lot of "i think" in it. Sorry for that ...
Please let me know your thoughts regarding this, as i want to be a constructive member, not a PITA- I kinda like this place, just think it can be even better.

With kind regards,

Klaas
 
diyAudio Editor
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Yes, Its best to split things off when they get off topic. In fact we did that when we split off the "potentiometers thread" and the "Blowtorch IP thread" from the original "Blowtorch thread". So we are doing exactly what you suggest. This was to give people who seemed to have lost interest in the point of the original thread a chance to continue their discussion which was in my opinion ruining the original with argumentitive, off topic and purposefully disruptive posts.

Obviously I disagree with moamps that his final posts were "unoffensive" and that I "shot first and asked questions later" I personally think his more legitimate point is that older posts of his were also deleted from the Blowtorch thread and that we have to be as fair and even handed as possible.

When I first checked into the original Blowtorch thread, well after it had started, I saw about six members posting aggressive and pretty much pointless posts, with no information or intentions of discussion regarding the preamplifier, attacking one person, John Curl, who was also occasionally giving some back.

Unfortunately I have to fall back on another analogy involving children to describe this. It was like walking onto the schoolyard playground and seeing various kids attacking one child. When I attempted to figure out what was happpening, it seemed to be the old: "he started it" , "no, he started it"

I then straightened out the mess as efficiently as I could, fully intending to delete other posts by members other than moamps and some others that I had already deleted but got no further as we split off the IP thread.

As I said above, the intention of this forum is to discuss Audio topics as adults, in a mature way. If you feel a thread is worthless,
and that the protagonist is acting in a way you personally don't feel is useful, state this clearly and LEAVE the thread, start another thread if you feel it is very important to discuss the new topic, as kvholio has suggessted.

I believe the point that moderators have a limited amount of time is legitimate. It is important for the members to know that almost always our actions are the result of mod group consensus, so we have to discuss every issue and offense before acting, and this takes even more time. It is seldom that mods act independently, this is usually when bad things are happening fast!!

We are volunteers here trying to keep the forums working at their best, and when members make us do lots of splitting, warning, and housekeeping, while they spend a few seconds composing a pointless aggressive post, the forum suffers.

EDIT: There WILL be changes due to this discussion. We have learned from it and the events that led to it. Will the changes satisfy everyone and make the forum exactly as he or she wants it? No, that's impossible, As I mentioned people have written me to say they like the new atmosphere here after some people were sent packing. We hate to lose members that have contributed in the past, but we can only do our best to accomodate them while respecting the other members END EDIT
 
Variac said:
Yes, Its best to split things off when they get off topic. In fact we did that when we split off the "potentiometers thread"....

I don't think discussing crackling Blowtorch attenuators was offtopic in a thread dealing exclusively with the dang thing. I wasn't even the one who brought the problem up but a concerned customer who bought the piece of equipment in question. Or do you also think I somehow MADE it crackle just to attack John Curl. This is ridiculous!

Obviously I disagree with moamps that his final posts were "unoffensive" and that I "shot first and asked questions later"...

I never use offensive language in discussions. I sometimes state my opinions that may hit the nerve. Like in this last instance when I said aggressive self-promotion campaigns may be, IN MY OPINION, a sign of business difficulties. As it turned out, I was apparently right. Offensive? I don't think so and neither do people who wrote to me about it.

As regards your "shoot first, ask questions later" moderating approach, reread your own words in your first post in this thread...

I'm beginning to think Jan is right and that this place really is becoming hopeless. Although you swear by your "respected members", the sad truth is that it's just a front for the masses. No matter how much one invests in this place to make it better, they will be trampled to death by the moderators if they infringe on marketing endevours of someone sufficiently "big". Well, at least this has been a valuable lesson for others out there: just take whatever you need from this place, never give anything back and look out for your best interest because no one else around here will.

Regards,
Milan
 
Milan, when i read your post, one thing comes to mind:
do you wanna stay here or do you wanna go ?
Right now i'm thoroughly enjoying my ksa-50 clone so i'm biased.
I'm not here to dicuss IP, i only want to discuss moderating.
Variac has been, at least to me, been quite constructive about my concerns regarding this.
This forum isn't perfect, well could it ever be ?
Do you you wanna stick around and invest some of your time to make it a good place or not ?and Milan, i know you allready did invest quite some time.More than me, i'm a relative newbie here.

I'm not going to write a lengthy reply today.I had to work today from 6 a.m to 2 p.m. i'm tired . don't feel sorry for me, i'm used to it.(well kinda-sorta)

bye for now,

Klaas
 
Time will tell, Klaas, like it always does. No one here seems to care to reveal their future intentions, so I don't really see why should I.

Unfortunately, I can't say I share your feelings about Variac. IN MY OPINION, he's done some serious damage and, honestly, I don't think he's cut out for the job. That's my opinion based on my experience with him.

Regards,
Milan
 
At this stage one could almost forget that this thread/branch is supposed to be about introductions. But in the end I guess there are various ways in which a person can get introcuced, sometimes unconsciously.....

Every half-proper thing on this planet sets its conditions, and one has a choice - in fact that is the very first step. In your profession, work, golf club, social club, strip club, church club - even, I would imagine, in the household of every person having posted here.

It is the unfortunate, often irritating, necessity on a very insignificant body rotating somewhere unnoticed in a vast universe.

As all here will know, one way or another, we in South-Africa are credited by others to have quite a decent National Constitution, eminating from a lot of suffering on both sides in the past, but mercifully also having done some things right. It guarantees quite a few freedoms, but somewhere there is also a stipulation, that personal freedom should not be exercised at the expense of someone else's freedom (not a direct quote).

I have learnt the hard way that real contribution must be judged by how much good a person has done, not the arithmetical sum of his blunders. Conceded, even perhaps on the balance of both. One is not simply as good as the last or even the worst game you played; test that with any sportsman. Especially the great ones.

I have come to this forum some 18 months ago. With more than 55 years of mostly professional background of electronics, especially in the audio field, I have hopefully contributed something, and have even been praised for such! I have also made blunders, and because of the limitation of words, received flak for the same (and yes, some such quite painful, rude and undeservedly!).

I have also received unique and unprecedented sympathy, much from folks unknown to me and to whom I was unknown (even a temporary thread dedicated to me) because of the tragic death of my wife in a car accident five months ago.

Apology for the length, but there is no short way to describe this. In the end, just my experience (one person out of an odd umpteen thousand membership) of this forum. Or perhaps there is a shorter way: If you are not happy, walk away - it is an unfair "right-of-admission-reserved" kind of thing. Especially if you have put honest but unsuccessful effort into trying to make it right. As someone said, sometimes it seems that nobody cares - and the most painful wounds come from the back-bites of those you trusted.

But it can also be a source of unprecedented encouragement (as I am in a special position to witness). If you have contributed, you have added value - and as far as I made contact with contributions of the members above, they all have.

It is everyone's personal decision. The forum may loose or gain, but the more tragic outcome will always be for the person who did not follow his conviction. It is the highest freedom (and in all modesty, I think we South-Africans know a little about that. In fact, that last thought was not my own. It came from Nelson Mandela.)
 
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