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Old 10th June 2006, 07:40 AM   #11
Variac is offline Variac  Costa Rica
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Location: San Francisco, USA San Josť, Costa Rica
Yes, Its best to split things off when they get off topic. In fact we did that when we split off the "potentiometers thread" and the "Blowtorch IP thread" from the original "Blowtorch thread". So we are doing exactly what you suggest. This was to give people who seemed to have lost interest in the point of the original thread a chance to continue their discussion which was in my opinion ruining the original with argumentitive, off topic and purposefully disruptive posts.

Obviously I disagree with moamps that his final posts were "unoffensive" and that I "shot first and asked questions later" I personally think his more legitimate point is that older posts of his were also deleted from the Blowtorch thread and that we have to be as fair and even handed as possible.

When I first checked into the original Blowtorch thread, well after it had started, I saw about six members posting aggressive and pretty much pointless posts, with no information or intentions of discussion regarding the preamplifier, attacking one person, John Curl, who was also occasionally giving some back.

Unfortunately I have to fall back on another analogy involving children to describe this. It was like walking onto the schoolyard playground and seeing various kids attacking one child. When I attempted to figure out what was happpening, it seemed to be the old: "he started it" , "no, he started it"

I then straightened out the mess as efficiently as I could, fully intending to delete other posts by members other than moamps and some others that I had already deleted but got no further as we split off the IP thread.

As I said above, the intention of this forum is to discuss Audio topics as adults, in a mature way. If you feel a thread is worthless,
and that the protagonist is acting in a way you personally don't feel is useful, state this clearly and LEAVE the thread, start another thread if you feel it is very important to discuss the new topic, as kvholio has suggessted.

I believe the point that moderators have a limited amount of time is legitimate. It is important for the members to know that almost always our actions are the result of mod group consensus, so we have to discuss every issue and offense before acting, and this takes even more time. It is seldom that mods act independently, this is usually when bad things are happening fast!!

We are volunteers here trying to keep the forums working at their best, and when members make us do lots of splitting, warning, and housekeeping, while they spend a few seconds composing a pointless aggressive post, the forum suffers.

EDIT: There WILL be changes due to this discussion. We have learned from it and the events that led to it. Will the changes satisfy everyone and make the forum exactly as he or she wants it? No, that's impossible, As I mentioned people have written me to say they like the new atmosphere here after some people were sent packing. We hate to lose members that have contributed in the past, but we can only do our best to accomodate them while respecting the other members END EDIT
"The geek shall inherit the earth"
2017 Burning Amp is November 12 in S.F. Thread here on diyAudio:
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Old 10th June 2006, 11:16 AM   #12
moamps is offline moamps  Croatia
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Location: Croatia
Originally posted by Variac
Yes, Its best to split things off when they get off topic. In fact we did that when we split off the "potentiometers thread"....
I don't think discussing crackling Blowtorch attenuators was offtopic in a thread dealing exclusively with the dang thing. I wasn't even the one who brought the problem up but a concerned customer who bought the piece of equipment in question. Or do you also think I somehow MADE it crackle just to attack John Curl. This is ridiculous!

Obviously I disagree with moamps that his final posts were "unoffensive" and that I "shot first and asked questions later"...
I never use offensive language in discussions. I sometimes state my opinions that may hit the nerve. Like in this last instance when I said aggressive self-promotion campaigns may be, IN MY OPINION, a sign of business difficulties. As it turned out, I was apparently right. Offensive? I don't think so and neither do people who wrote to me about it.

As regards your "shoot first, ask questions later" moderating approach, reread your own words in your first post in this thread...

I'm beginning to think Jan is right and that this place really is becoming hopeless. Although you swear by your "respected members", the sad truth is that it's just a front for the masses. No matter how much one invests in this place to make it better, they will be trampled to death by the moderators if they infringe on marketing endevours of someone sufficiently "big". Well, at least this has been a valuable lesson for others out there: just take whatever you need from this place, never give anything back and look out for your best interest because no one else around here will.

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Old 10th June 2006, 08:19 PM   #13
kvholio is offline kvholio  Netherlands
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Location: leeuwarden
Milan, when i read your post, one thing comes to mind:
do you wanna stay here or do you wanna go ?
Right now i'm thoroughly enjoying my ksa-50 clone so i'm biased.
I'm not here to dicuss IP, i only want to discuss moderating.
Variac has been, at least to me, been quite constructive about my concerns regarding this.
This forum isn't perfect, well could it ever be ?
Do you you wanna stick around and invest some of your time to make it a good place or not ?and Milan, i know you allready did invest quite some time.More than me, i'm a relative newbie here.

I'm not going to write a lengthy reply today.I had to work today from 6 a.m to 2 p.m. i'm tired . don't feel sorry for me, i'm used to it.(well kinda-sorta)

bye for now,

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Old 10th June 2006, 09:23 PM   #14
moamps is offline moamps  Croatia
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Croatia
Time will tell, Klaas, like it always does. No one here seems to care to reveal their future intentions, so I don't really see why should I.

Unfortunately, I can't say I share your feelings about Variac. IN MY OPINION, he's done some serious damage and, honestly, I don't think he's cut out for the job. That's my opinion based on my experience with him.

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Old 19th December 2006, 02:33 PM   #15
Johan Potgieter is offline Johan Potgieter  South Africa
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Pretoria, South Africa
At this stage one could almost forget that this thread/branch is supposed to be about introductions. But in the end I guess there are various ways in which a person can get introcuced, sometimes unconsciously.....

Every half-proper thing on this planet sets its conditions, and one has a choice - in fact that is the very first step. In your profession, work, golf club, social club, strip club, church club - even, I would imagine, in the household of every person having posted here.

It is the unfortunate, often irritating, necessity on a very insignificant body rotating somewhere unnoticed in a vast universe.

As all here will know, one way or another, we in South-Africa are credited by others to have quite a decent National Constitution, eminating from a lot of suffering on both sides in the past, but mercifully also having done some things right. It guarantees quite a few freedoms, but somewhere there is also a stipulation, that personal freedom should not be exercised at the expense of someone else's freedom (not a direct quote).

I have learnt the hard way that real contribution must be judged by how much good a person has done, not the arithmetical sum of his blunders. Conceded, even perhaps on the balance of both. One is not simply as good as the last or even the worst game you played; test that with any sportsman. Especially the great ones.

I have come to this forum some 18 months ago. With more than 55 years of mostly professional background of electronics, especially in the audio field, I have hopefully contributed something, and have even been praised for such! I have also made blunders, and because of the limitation of words, received flak for the same (and yes, some such quite painful, rude and undeservedly!).

I have also received unique and unprecedented sympathy, much from folks unknown to me and to whom I was unknown (even a temporary thread dedicated to me) because of the tragic death of my wife in a car accident five months ago.

Apology for the length, but there is no short way to describe this. In the end, just my experience (one person out of an odd umpteen thousand membership) of this forum. Or perhaps there is a shorter way: If you are not happy, walk away - it is an unfair "right-of-admission-reserved" kind of thing. Especially if you have put honest but unsuccessful effort into trying to make it right. As someone said, sometimes it seems that nobody cares - and the most painful wounds come from the back-bites of those you trusted.

But it can also be a source of unprecedented encouragement (as I am in a special position to witness). If you have contributed, you have added value - and as far as I made contact with contributions of the members above, they all have.

It is everyone's personal decision. The forum may loose or gain, but the more tragic outcome will always be for the person who did not follow his conviction. It is the highest freedom (and in all modesty, I think we South-Africans know a little about that. In fact, that last thought was not my own. It came from Nelson Mandela.)
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