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Old 10th December 2005, 07:42 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Variac

We firmly believe the really quite amazing success of the forum is due to the civil tone and respect required of members, and really this is the predominant rule.
good.


Quote:
Originally posted by anatech
Mark,
Yes, absolutely. This board is far more professional and helpful than any other I have seen yet. The amount of knowledge available is astounding. This is due in large part because of the rules and rather high standard of moderation I see here.

In the end it is up to the members as a group to behave themselves.

-Chris
RIGHTly said
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Old 10th December 2005, 11:20 AM   #42
Variac is offline Variac  United States
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If we are giving out accolades, I tend to agree with Enzo:

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Usually it is not what you say, but rather the way that you say it.
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Old 10th December 2005, 02:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcidOrangeJuice

The rules are done by common humans, as you or as I; and these, are not necessarily perfect. The rules always are subject to change, mainly in science. If Thomas Alva Edison had not questioned "the rules" of their time, very probably, our houses and cities still would be illuminated with gas lamps.

All the corrupt systems of government in the history; as Hitler, or the Inquisition for example, were protagonists of many innocent deaths and injustices. The doctrine of these systems of government was: Hey man!!!, don't think, don't question, and don't break the rules!!

In this point I believe that Galileo Galilei had been in agreement with me.

So far everybody is agreeing with everybody else. What a boring thread this has become! Waste of time, really.

Jan Didden
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Old 10th December 2005, 02:34 PM   #44
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Heck, it's long and interesting for a "Hi, my name is .... " thread. It should have died in 3 or 4 posts really.

Just got through the door and we're discussing moderation already!

-Chris
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Old 11th December 2005, 08:36 AM   #45
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Default Of course, there are always special cases...

Like I was saying: of course, there are always special cases...

For example, when too much negative feedback is used and wrapped back into a diff amp at an early stage, there is the potential that the feedback signal will suck all the juice out of the ["constant"] current source biasing that diff amp. In some cases, this can cause something nasty to happen in the signal path. As I recall, this is considered an advanced form of slewing, and it is revealed by measuring transient intermodulation distorion using a sine wave riding synchronized on top of a square wave.

This is one of the many little design details that may have caused some early solid state amps not so sound as good as they could have with less feedback. As engineers, we learn diff amp as small signal problems and as biasing problems -- but often with little care about how the two problems can interact. On the other hand, what do you say to a smartypants know-it-all expert who refuses to believe that electrons can get back there fast enough to have a beneficial effect on the signal?

I'm a million years old, and I've heard a lot of arguments in the audio world. Such passions! At the end of the day (or at the end of one of the days, eventually), we realize a number of important things:

(1) Some people hear what they want to hear, and they may delve into buffoonery when they take an aggressive technical position based on their imaginary evidence.

(2) Some people can hear real differences, but for whatever reasons, attribute these differences to ridiculous theories (often overlooking the fact their test system is a piece of, or broken, etc.); we need to remember there are points taken off for wrong answers.

(3) Certain technical people dive into buffoonery when they assert the impossibility of sound qualities reported by truly excellent and perhaps even gifted listeners.

(4) Many audio nuts (like I am) sometimes enjoy taking sides in a way that polarizes forums including the once popular neighborhood stereo equipment store. Thank God for the Internet!

(5) There are seven more items on this list -- unless I am entirely mistaken in that belief. Do you know what I'm saying?

Cheers, Dude. Welcome to the Free World. And be gentle.
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Old 11th December 2005, 12:38 PM   #46
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Default Re: Of course, there are always special cases...

Konnichiwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by JimRodgers
On the other hand, what do you say to a smartypants know-it-all expert who refuses to believe that electrons can get back there fast enough to have a beneficial effect on the signal?
I would not know about that, considering that "Electrons" are imaginary and have no proven reality doews it matter what these inaginary particles do? BTW, I agree that there is something, but the "Electron Particle" model is by far to poorely correlated with reality to be taken as the gospel (eg. IF the electron where a traditional newtonian particle as the model aledges Heisen would have never become famous).

Quote:
Originally posted by JimRodgers
(1) Some people hear what they want to hear, and they may delve into buffoonery when they take an aggressive technical position based on their imaginary evidence.
Note, that includes those who want to hear "NO DIFFERENCE" and who then fo on to endlessly wave "no result" DB Tests around which are easily dismissed purely on statistical grounds, never mind the validity of the actual test-setup.

The problem is that people want certainties. They (the pee-pull) rather live with false certainties (as in 'we know what is going on') than to face the real uncertainty (as in 'we have no footbaling clue why it does that') and are always ready to laugh at and ridicule the fool who sits on his hill with his cap and his bells, completely failing to note that the real fools is they....

Sayonara
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Old 11th December 2005, 01:03 PM   #47
SY is offline SY  United States
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Thorsten, where does that "Newtonian particle" stuff come from? I'm no expert in QM, but I have managed to eke out a few papers on the subject in refereed journals, and AFAIK, there's no such thing as the "Electron Particle Model" in any post-1921 conception of QM.
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Old 11th December 2005, 01:08 PM   #48
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Konnichwa,

Quote:
Originally posted by SY
there's no such thing as the "Electron Particle Model" in any post-1921 conception of QM.
Yet it persists among EE's.... Who arguably did not take Quantum Physics (I myself was thought it more or less like that at University in the 80's).

I guess the debate would be if the particle model suffices in Electronics, or not.

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Old 11th December 2005, 09:08 PM   #49
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Default Re: Of course, there are always special cases...

Quote:
Originally posted by JimRodgers
[snip] On the other hand, what do you say to a smartypants know-it-all expert who refuses to believe that electrons can get back there fast enough to have a beneficial effect on the signal?[snip]

Hi Jim,

I gather you refer to the fact that feedback can't work because the electrons come back too late to prevent the damage?

I must say you make a convincing case, and I really would like to believe you, but there I have a problem. You see, all those millions of years I have been building equipment with feedback, it worked everytime. All the time. Exactly as predicted. Exactly as calculated. So why does reality refuse to follow your theory, or am I missing something?

Edit: Jim, if I misread you, that is, if you DO believe that electrons CAN get there fast enough, scratch my above post, in that case you, I and reality DO agree. Semantics...

Jan Didden
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Old 11th December 2005, 10:40 PM   #50
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What debate? Did I start a thread? This is cool.

Thanks, SY, for running to my side. I'm new here, so I appreciate the third dimension of your remarks.

Satonara, I welcome your remarks on my other points as well. like numbers 4, 8, and 11.

And keep in mind that while electrons are a theoretical abstraction, so also is electricity: the theoretical flow of theoretical charge in a over a supposed period of so-called time and in an approximate place. I remember those days -- in the dorm at Emory: what if the whole universe is just a spec under the thumbnail of some giant... Wait a minute! Electricity is the flow of positive charges!!! I KNOW there is no such thing as THAT in a wire? OR what do I REALLY know?

Seriously, I did not mean to trip over any previous positions you may have expressed about electrons or positive feedback, etc. I was just trying to make the point feedback theory very often gets repeatable results we can hear in the sound machines we build using that theory. Good results and bad results. Actually, I thought I was posting a response to welcome a new guy who was as odds with another forum for expressing himself about the theory feedback in amplifer circuit design. So I was just trying to be nice ot him.

By the way, I just saw a certain lodspeaker website was selling audiophile duplex power receptacles for $150! For electrons! Any takers?

Just kidding. It nice to have such a rich place to bring up Audio topics. I have many questions to ask, and I hope I can offer some information back from time to time.
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