Hello,
My younger son plays bass guitar semi professionally (he's a music student at the university).
I'm considering to buid for him a new amp/boxes combo, and would like a bit of your collective wisdom...
- Why are 4 x 10" speakers used for the high bass/lo mids box (and not just one)?
- Are class D amp (quite possibly Tripath based) reliable enough for this usage?
What I have in mind is a bi-ampli system, electronic Xo, 15" bass box (from 40Hz), something for high bass/lo mids, and a horn tweeter.
Power would be 300W/channel, class D, clasic power supply (not SMPS).
Thanks for your help,
My younger son plays bass guitar semi professionally (he's a music student at the university).
I'm considering to buid for him a new amp/boxes combo, and would like a bit of your collective wisdom...
- Why are 4 x 10" speakers used for the high bass/lo mids box (and not just one)?
- Are class D amp (quite possibly Tripath based) reliable enough for this usage?
What I have in mind is a bi-ampli system, electronic Xo, 15" bass box (from 40Hz), something for high bass/lo mids, and a horn tweeter.
Power would be 300W/channel, class D, clasic power supply (not SMPS).
Thanks for your help,
4x10"s are used for the slight boost in efficiency.
A well made class D amp is more than reliable enough.
Euphonic Audio and Acoustic Image make class D bass amps. A large number of other companies make class D PA amps.
Bass cabinets really only need an f3 of 40-60hz, I would look in to PA drivers.
This section of the forum is pretty dead, you may want to ask in the loudspeaker and class D sections.
A well made class D amp is more than reliable enough.
Euphonic Audio and Acoustic Image make class D bass amps. A large number of other companies make class D PA amps.
Bass cabinets really only need an f3 of 40-60hz, I would look in to PA drivers.
This section of the forum is pretty dead, you may want to ask in the loudspeaker and class D sections.
Thanks, Tim
I've posted it here because I'm looking for user's opinion, and I felt the other forum posters may not be familiar with the pro/semi pro music environment (I for one!)...
The speakers I'm considering are PA ones, and the 15" in a ported box will go from 40Hz and produce 120dB @1m @300W.
Re the 4 x 10", if it's efficiency, one 10" (of the same make) is slightly more efficient - 120dB @1m @180W.
And with a 4th order L-R Xo at about 200~250Hz power handling (excursion) will be OK for a flat power response.
So, I feel I can do it with only a 15 and a 10 (plus horn). Reason is that he have to carry his gear around, so the smaller/lighter the better!
Same for the class D amp (but at least the first version will not have a SMPS).
I've posted it here because I'm looking for user's opinion, and I felt the other forum posters may not be familiar with the pro/semi pro music environment (I for one!)...
The speakers I'm considering are PA ones, and the 15" in a ported box will go from 40Hz and produce 120dB @1m @300W.
Re the 4 x 10", if it's efficiency, one 10" (of the same make) is slightly more efficient - 120dB @1m @180W.
And with a 4th order L-R Xo at about 200~250Hz power handling (excursion) will be OK for a flat power response.
So, I feel I can do it with only a 15 and a 10 (plus horn). Reason is that he have to carry his gear around, so the smaller/lighter the better!
Same for the class D amp (but at least the first version will not have a SMPS).
As Tim said, for the sfficiency. However 4x10 cabs have some weird phasing issues depending on where you stand in front of them. Never heard a 4x10 I liked. They're also a weird shape that's hard to load into a car or move or carryJorge said:I'm considering to buid for him a new amp/boxes combo, and would like a bit of your collective wisdom...
- Why are 4 x 10" speakers used for the high bass/lo mids box (and not just one)?
This si what I'm using for my rig at the moment. No reliability issues so far and a heck of a lot less weight. I have fans on the amp modules, blowing both across the heatsing and the PCB's. Not neccessary, but I like electronics cool, I had them anyway and I run the fans slow.
This is basically what my big rig will use, except I have a PAudio SN12C coax 12" (neo) because I got it for peanuts. I'm going to replace the HF driver with a BMS4552ND. When I get the BMS, I'll triamp, simply because I have a small T amp to drive it.
As you're in Brazil, are Selenium drivers cheap there? A rig consisting of
- WPU1505, ported. I haven't run the numbers but should be good.
- 10PW3 may be enough (Xmax is a bit low for my tates) in a sealed box. 300Hz xover.
- D205 on a flare that matches the dispersion of the MF driver at the xover freq, maybe the 5625?
It's a little bit of overkill, but I like my rig to be clean and loud, then use the pre and effects to shape the tone, so I have max flexibility. This is basically how my big rig was built before I got the PAudio neo coax. The 12" Selenium coax would be good too if it fits within budget.
Not sure what else is available to you locally.
Some suggestions:
- build the 15" into a box of it's own, and the 10 + horn into another. Reason is that depending upon how you shape the LF enclosure, you may be able to fit it into rear seats or boots (trunks) of cars more easily. The smaller bulk and mass are easier to shift and are better for the back to lift up and down. If your son also has to move his rig into backstage areas with poor or narrow access, this will be a lot easier.
- place the handles (and use steel ones) once the box is built so you can find the balance points of the box and the best position to lift it easily. After a long gig, your son will thank you for this.
- don't carpet the box(es) because it picks up smells like stale cigarettes and beer. Vinyl, epoxy or Rodkhard paint are better.
- buy a cheap furniture removalist's dolly to move the gear from the vehicle to the stage.
Thanks, Brett
Speakers - unbelievable, but you can purchase Selenium in the US cheaper than we pay over here!
I intend to use Snake ESX155 and ESX310
http://www.snakepro.com/english/products.htm
It seems a decent brand, better prices than Selenium. My simulations shows Xo at 200~250Hz.
Your suggestions are quite in line with my thoughs - a ported cube for the 15", a closed box for the 10", horn and power amp.
Preamp, at least in the first version will be his foot pedals!
And very nice handling suggestions!
Take care,
Speakers - unbelievable, but you can purchase Selenium in the US cheaper than we pay over here!
I intend to use Snake ESX155 and ESX310
http://www.snakepro.com/english/products.htm
It seems a decent brand, better prices than Selenium. My simulations shows Xo at 200~250Hz.
Your suggestions are quite in line with my thoughs - a ported cube for the 15", a closed box for the 10", horn and power amp.
Preamp, at least in the first version will be his foot pedals!
And very nice handling suggestions!
Take care,
Snake: I don't know how much they would cost or where they are sold out of Brazil, but here's the US contact:
Doug Holmquist
8074 Esterbrook Drive
Nashville TN USA
37221
Phone / Fax: (615) 516-0878
Selenium is a long standing brand, highly regarded for PA and musical instruments.
Parts Express for one sells it.
Doug Holmquist
8074 Esterbrook Drive
Nashville TN USA
37221
Phone / Fax: (615) 516-0878
Selenium is a long standing brand, highly regarded for PA and musical instruments.
Parts Express for one sells it.
I'll buy adding a ten incher to the big LF driver to pick up pickin', slappin' and fret sounds but for what reason does one feel that an actual tweeter is necessary in bass guitar reproduction? Forgive me if this is a dumb question as I am not a musician, nor have I ever played one on TV.
I have an unused quad of NIB Selenium 10PW3's looking for a project.
Rob
I have an unused quad of NIB Selenium 10PW3's looking for a project.
Rob
Hello, Rob
The decision (still pending)
of using a tweeter was based in this article:
http://www.core-sound.com/bottom-article.html
I've spoken to the owner of a musical instruments store, and he said all the bass boxes he sold that had a tweeter also had a switch/level pot so one could turn the tweeter on/off at will.
The decision (still pending)
of using a tweeter was based in this article:http://www.core-sound.com/bottom-article.html
I've spoken to the owner of a musical instruments store, and he said all the bass boxes he sold that had a tweeter also had a switch/level pot so one could turn the tweeter on/off at will.
A lot depends on the sound you want, and probably on your style of music?, some people swear by tweeters, others hate them, it's very much a personal choice. As already suggested, it's common practice to have tweeters (where fitted) switchable, so you have both options.
I bought my bass playing daughter a Behringer BX1200 combo, which is a really nice little amp - it has a single 12 inch speaker, and NO tweeter - it sounds great with a bass guitar through it. However, it's got a pair of phono socket inputs on the back where you can plug a CD player in, to play along to - as there's no tweeter it sounds really dull - this would be a good case for a switchable tweeter?.
I bought my bass playing daughter a Behringer BX1200 combo, which is a really nice little amp - it has a single 12 inch speaker, and NO tweeter - it sounds great with a bass guitar through it. However, it's got a pair of phono socket inputs on the back where you can plug a CD player in, to play along to - as there's no tweeter it sounds really dull - this would be a good case for a switchable tweeter?.
Hello Jorge,
I play both bass-guitar and double-bass, and over the past 25 years have played over many systems. Here is some of my experience:
For a true "full-range" sound I like a 15" bass driver and one or two smaller drivers to give better midrange articulation. I find a tweeter a "must have" as it gives the harmonics a much clearer presentation, if the amplifier has a good graphic equalizer then the tweeter level can be adjusted to taste using the eq.
The multipe 10" cabinets are preferred for percussive slap playing because the have more punch than a single 15" but they do lack bass weight.
The amount and size of drivers also depends how the speaker will be used, for small club playing you will need less cone area than when playing on a large stage.
My current single box set-up uses a 12" woofer + 2x 7" midwoofers + a tweeter. The 7" run fullrange, the 12" has a 1st order low-pass at about 300Hz and the tweeter has a 3rd order highpass at about 5kHz. I use a Trace-Elliot amp with 12-band eq but only use the eq for adjusting the system to the acoustic of the room I play in, basically the box itsself has hi-fi qualities. I used a 12" woofer only because of portability issues, otherwise I would have used a 15" woofer.
I play both bass-guitar and double-bass, and over the past 25 years have played over many systems. Here is some of my experience:
For a true "full-range" sound I like a 15" bass driver and one or two smaller drivers to give better midrange articulation. I find a tweeter a "must have" as it gives the harmonics a much clearer presentation, if the amplifier has a good graphic equalizer then the tweeter level can be adjusted to taste using the eq.
The multipe 10" cabinets are preferred for percussive slap playing because the have more punch than a single 15" but they do lack bass weight.
The amount and size of drivers also depends how the speaker will be used, for small club playing you will need less cone area than when playing on a large stage.
My current single box set-up uses a 12" woofer + 2x 7" midwoofers + a tweeter. The 7" run fullrange, the 12" has a 1st order low-pass at about 300Hz and the tweeter has a 3rd order highpass at about 5kHz. I use a Trace-Elliot amp with 12-band eq but only use the eq for adjusting the system to the acoustic of the room I play in, basically the box itsself has hi-fi qualities. I used a 12" woofer only because of portability issues, otherwise I would have used a 15" woofer.
Here 's a photo:
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Hello, Tony
Thanks a lot for your help.
The most professional activity of my son is in a dance club/bar playing caribean music in an 8 persons combo for an audience of some 400 people.
Most of the players in this combo make a living out of music.
Isn't there an HP filter for the 7" speakers in yor system?
That's something I find unusual in these bass systems - the midrange will quite likelly be stressed by bass!
This is the reason I'm considering a biampli + line level Xo. This way, a 10" speaker is good enough up to 120 dB at 1m...
Take care,
Thanks a lot for your help.
The most professional activity of my son is in a dance club/bar playing caribean music in an 8 persons combo for an audience of some 400 people.
Most of the players in this combo make a living out of music.
Isn't there an HP filter for the 7" speakers in yor system?
That's something I find unusual in these bass systems - the midrange will quite likelly be stressed by bass!
This is the reason I'm considering a biampli + line level Xo. This way, a 10" speaker is good enough up to 120 dB at 1m...
Take care,
For such a venue I would advise a 15" bass cabinet with a seperate 4x 10" woofers + tweeter cabinet. This should have enough powerhandling and is also flexible that for smaller gigs the 4x 10" cabinet will work on its own. The 15" will give "body" to the bass, the four 10" woofers (so not only midrange) will provide articulation and speed. Something like this:
The 7" woofers in my system are rugged pro-woofers without any filter. I mostly play in small jazz clubs with a maximum of about 100 people so my system doesn't need to play very loud.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The 7" woofers in my system are rugged pro-woofers without any filter. I mostly play in small jazz clubs with a maximum of about 100 people so my system doesn't need to play very loud.
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