Got a unique to me situation and looking for advice.
Problem: I am joining a band where they do not allow on stage amplifiers. e.g. They want you to plug straight into the PA.
The past guitar player used a digital processor. IMHO it sounded like garbage. No offense some of you might like it but I can't get into it. My sound is very reliant upon the coloration of the amp interaction between preamp stage and my pedals, also the distortion from the output stage and natural voicing of the speaker. My amp is push pull pentode mode zero global feedback.
Current setup: As mentioned I have a homebrew 10 watt combo amp, 6V6 pentode push pull cathode bias. What are people's opinions on isolation boxes? I have two serious problems with this, I am lazy and have a bad back and I would have to carry both my amp AND the isolation box to the gigs. My amp is the size of a Fender Tweed Deluxe, so a 1x12" speaker small combo. I am sure an isolation box for this sized amp might be sort of expensive to build.
An option I might try which would be fun anyway is making a simple 1W SE amp amp mounting everything inside a small isolation box with a mic. I have several 50C5, 6AK5, 12HL7.
Another option I guess would be to make a tube preamp with a target 5% THD at say 1V output. This would just add some warmth and coloration to my guitar.
Key info is I don't push my power amp stage of my amp into clipping, I use an Ibanez TS9 for overdrive and I have a compression pedal that boosts my signal hotter to drive my preamp stage of guitar amp. So maybe I can get away with option 3 to just get some nice coloration to warm up the guitar tone before sending it off to the PA.
All ideas are welcome. Thanks,
-bird
Problem: I am joining a band where they do not allow on stage amplifiers. e.g. They want you to plug straight into the PA.
The past guitar player used a digital processor. IMHO it sounded like garbage. No offense some of you might like it but I can't get into it. My sound is very reliant upon the coloration of the amp interaction between preamp stage and my pedals, also the distortion from the output stage and natural voicing of the speaker. My amp is push pull pentode mode zero global feedback.
Current setup: As mentioned I have a homebrew 10 watt combo amp, 6V6 pentode push pull cathode bias. What are people's opinions on isolation boxes? I have two serious problems with this, I am lazy and have a bad back and I would have to carry both my amp AND the isolation box to the gigs. My amp is the size of a Fender Tweed Deluxe, so a 1x12" speaker small combo. I am sure an isolation box for this sized amp might be sort of expensive to build.
An option I might try which would be fun anyway is making a simple 1W SE amp amp mounting everything inside a small isolation box with a mic. I have several 50C5, 6AK5, 12HL7.
Another option I guess would be to make a tube preamp with a target 5% THD at say 1V output. This would just add some warmth and coloration to my guitar.
Key info is I don't push my power amp stage of my amp into clipping, I use an Ibanez TS9 for overdrive and I have a compression pedal that boosts my signal hotter to drive my preamp stage of guitar amp. So maybe I can get away with option 3 to just get some nice coloration to warm up the guitar tone before sending it off to the PA.
All ideas are welcome. Thanks,
-bird
My usual advice holds up in this case, which is to mimic or at least be influenced by commercial devices. There are commercial devices which would fit your needs, as guitarists have to deal with "fly in" gigs.
Basically, these devices are typically foot pedal preamps with tone controls, tube stages, cab simulator, an effects loop and DI output, or at least most of those.
I don't know exactly where your skills are. If you need a published DIY design, the Craig Anderton Stack-in-a-Box has the elements you are looking for. If it doesn't fit the bill, you should be able to "glue" together the building blocks you need.
Basically, these devices are typically foot pedal preamps with tone controls, tube stages, cab simulator, an effects loop and DI output, or at least most of those.
I don't know exactly where your skills are. If you need a published DIY design, the Craig Anderton Stack-in-a-Box has the elements you are looking for. If it doesn't fit the bill, you should be able to "glue" together the building blocks you need.
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so no acoustic drums?
if there's acoustic drums and everything is monitored on floor wedges with a limited or "one" mix monitor situation find another band...
i've tried to help a number of musicians make this sort of thing work but there is a lot of pitfalls.
if everyone is on "in ears" for monitors there's a better chance.
of the "options" you presented #3 the pre-amp i think would be your best bet provided your feeding that to a console that has 4 band eq with sweepable mids and some form of processing that would give ambience coloration as in, short slapback delay for small room tone emulation or lite 'verb so it can breath a bit and get some size. a dry pre-amp signal is just that "dry", likely a great tone but the whole speaker, mic, room relationship is gone and in a live situation removing that can affect a players performance.
the "iso" box can work but i find the "anechoic" sound they produce needs to be to some degree be treated much like the "pre-amp" so i'm with you on saving the lower lumbars and not have to carry something else to the gig (heaven forbid a loft gig with alot of stairs and no freight elevator!)
other then that have you ever tried the Sans Amp stuff, i've worked with a few players that rocked at getting their tones with those but in those cases they where using "in ears" and Eq'ing for the performers monitor and house mix was radically different.
p.s. i like your choice of distortion pedals although i'm not a guitar player just a lowly soundman i look at pedals to get an idea of what to expect in guitar sound, Ibanez TS9 is venerable in my books!
if there's acoustic drums and everything is monitored on floor wedges with a limited or "one" mix monitor situation find another band...
i've tried to help a number of musicians make this sort of thing work but there is a lot of pitfalls.
if everyone is on "in ears" for monitors there's a better chance.
of the "options" you presented #3 the pre-amp i think would be your best bet provided your feeding that to a console that has 4 band eq with sweepable mids and some form of processing that would give ambience coloration as in, short slapback delay for small room tone emulation or lite 'verb so it can breath a bit and get some size. a dry pre-amp signal is just that "dry", likely a great tone but the whole speaker, mic, room relationship is gone and in a live situation removing that can affect a players performance.
the "iso" box can work but i find the "anechoic" sound they produce needs to be to some degree be treated much like the "pre-amp" so i'm with you on saving the lower lumbars and not have to carry something else to the gig (heaven forbid a loft gig with alot of stairs and no freight elevator!)
other then that have you ever tried the Sans Amp stuff, i've worked with a few players that rocked at getting their tones with those but in those cases they where using "in ears" and Eq'ing for the performers monitor and house mix was radically different.
p.s. i like your choice of distortion pedals although i'm not a guitar player just a lowly soundman i look at pedals to get an idea of what to expect in guitar sound, Ibanez TS9 is venerable in my books!
There are a bunch of commercially available tube based preamps around. I've got a Seymour Duncan twin tube classic (which does "creamy" well). And countless DIY designs (e.g. The Real McTube). Probably worth trying these first.
Also, have a listen to the sound clips at run-off groove. Some combination of a pre-amp and a box emulator might tickle your fancy. There's a few speaker emulator circuits out there too, which include frequency and power dependent bits (often using a light bulb to emulate coil heating). Won't get "cone cry" but..
At the end of the day, a low watt amp into an isolation box should meet your needs, although finding a PP Pentode low watt jobbie is a challenge (mostly seem to be 10 watters with power scaling). Using a small, low efficiency speaker will help, if you can find one you like the sound of.
Hmmm. Maybe adding power scaling to your existing amp or just a very effective isolation box might be the go. Pull your existing speaker and wrap it up?
Also, have a listen to the sound clips at run-off groove. Some combination of a pre-amp and a box emulator might tickle your fancy. There's a few speaker emulator circuits out there too, which include frequency and power dependent bits (often using a light bulb to emulate coil heating). Won't get "cone cry" but..
At the end of the day, a low watt amp into an isolation box should meet your needs, although finding a PP Pentode low watt jobbie is a challenge (mostly seem to be 10 watters with power scaling). Using a small, low efficiency speaker will help, if you can find one you like the sound of.
Hmmm. Maybe adding power scaling to your existing amp or just a very effective isolation box might be the go. Pull your existing speaker and wrap it up?
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As mentioned above, this is pretty much the industry standard: TECH 21 - SANSAMP, SansAmp, Analog Amp Modeling
Got one.
Now, does knowing what Turk 182 means show my age?
To the OP... have you considered joining a different band?
Have a listen.
$30 Joyo American sound pedal into TC Flashback delay, direct to mixer.
JOYO AM SND by Thomas Coulter | Free Listening on SoundCloud
I use a powered monitor wedge when gigs require a stage volume.
$30 Joyo American sound pedal into TC Flashback delay, direct to mixer.
JOYO AM SND by Thomas Coulter | Free Listening on SoundCloud
I use a powered monitor wedge when gigs require a stage volume.
A huge part of me really agrees with the "find a new band" and "not much fun on stage" comments. I am also not looking forward to wearing an in ear monitor. I am willing to give a try and honestly I am hoping to reach some sort of compromise.
My first visit I am bringing my amp and I am thinking I can possibly pop in some sort of power scaling or just keep the volume really low and use something like this:
sE Electronics - guitaRF(R)
It's a small combo amp, open back, with 12" speaker. Some sound will still exit the back but if I can keep the amp really low volume and isolate the front it should work.
I was also tipped off that a passive speaker simulator that combines mic properties can really sound good so that's an option as well. But I was poking through my basement and I got some plywood, I can get some foam, and I have a good amount of woodworking tools so I hope to whip us an isolation baffle similar to the link provided above.
My first visit I am bringing my amp and I am thinking I can possibly pop in some sort of power scaling or just keep the volume really low and use something like this:
sE Electronics - guitaRF(R)
It's a small combo amp, open back, with 12" speaker. Some sound will still exit the back but if I can keep the amp really low volume and isolate the front it should work.
I was also tipped off that a passive speaker simulator that combines mic properties can really sound good so that's an option as well. But I was poking through my basement and I got some plywood, I can get some foam, and I have a good amount of woodworking tools so I hope to whip us an isolation baffle similar to the link provided above.
Power scaling can be done many ways, I've not yet tried it but there was a thread here a while ago, suggesting that scaling both screen and plate voltages will keep the load line through the knee of the pentode curves. Lots more info here (revolutiondeux, 2012). Purists would leave the pre-amp and PI stage voltages alone but in most amps that's a pile of extra work to achieve.
Half the sound will exit the back. From a few yards away it won't be much quieter.
Here's an example for a complete combo Amptone's DIY iso-box. That's probably not roadie-friendly so stick a driver in a box full of foam & blankets. Make the speaker baffle stand-alone and small enough to cancel as much bass as possible (that is, don't separate the box into two halves). Close mike one side of the cone.
I've run into exactly the same situation. I tried running a couple of different tube amps into a restorative dummy load and a Behringer box that supposedly simulates the response of a 4X12 loaded with Celestion Greenbacks. The sound sucked. So I ditched that in favour of Tech21 clone/knock-off, also made by Behringer. I wanted to try out a lower cost entry point before the real deal Tech21.
The tones were way better and somewhat tube amp like. However, the tone and responsiveness are no equal to a real tube amp. I think I now want to invest in a Vox AD50, and use the line out.
I've gotten used to the in-ear monitors now. I just use one ear bud in my left ear, and leave the right open, so I can hear the ambient sound. That works pretty well for me.
The tones were way better and somewhat tube amp like. However, the tone and responsiveness are no equal to a real tube amp. I think I now want to invest in a Vox AD50, and use the line out.
I've gotten used to the in-ear monitors now. I just use one ear bud in my left ear, and leave the right open, so I can hear the ambient sound. That works pretty well for me.
If the amp uses the Marshall type LTP phase inverter try power scaling the PI alone. I saw an amp schematic somewhere where this was done, so I tried it on one of my old amps and it sounds almost convincing. The advantage is that a single mosfet can do the deed and it doesn't even need a heat sink.......just don't touch the metal tab....PSSSSZAP!
Another possibility is a big resistive attenuator between the amp and speaker.....AKA power soak, power brake.........
The 20 watt quasi Marshall clone I built for the old Hundred Buck Amp Challenge used an ordinary L pad "volume control" from Parts Express between the amp and speaker. It got rather warm, OK, hot when abused at full crank for an hour or so, but didn't blow up. I used the 15 watt version to fit the $100 budget for the whole amp, but they have them up to 100 W.
Speaker L-Pad Attenuator 15W Mono 3/8" Shaft 8 Ohm
on the topic of ambient sound for in ears i always set up an omni mic that i apply at low level to all the mixes so the performers get a "restored" sense of ambience, isolation from the audience is not a good thing, they can also hear requests and heckles alike...
sorry for the off topic... back to preamp choices and the devilish schemes to wire them into the PA dagnab it!!
sorry for the off topic... back to preamp choices and the devilish schemes to wire them into the PA dagnab it!!
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