Firstly, I apologize if I am in the wrong area as I am new to many things, but very quick to learn. I will try to make my request short and sweet...
Recently, I went for a browse at the local landfill recycling centre and picked up a tattered Base MK-933 electronic keyboard for a few dollars, although it didn't have a MIDI output. It was fully working and very dirty, so I took it apart and cleaned it up. A few wires had come off the circuitry and now it won't work, but it's still a very nice keyboard in a lovely rosewood enclosure with a lid.
Here is what I would like to do with it... since the keyboard is already assembled and the case is sound, I would like to gut out the electronics used for the sound banks and other features, possibly even rebuild the case for just the keyboard to reduce the weight.
And here is my question... I know enough about woodworking to create a fine enclosure and I have the tools for that and electronics, but I don't know much about converting the keyboard to add a MIDI output to use it in my DAW or other standalone software. Is there a simple way of adding circuitry to the existing cables to achieve this? There are 61 velocity sensitive keys and no modulation wheel (which I am not concerned about for the moment).
EDIT: The electronics are fried and in a fit of frustration, I tore out the circuitry, took out the keyboard with its cabling and tossed out the box it was in (it was damaged anyway). I did a little research and discovered that I can use the keyboard PCB and keys to make a MIDI controller at a low cost. I am also currently making a schematic for a lightweight enclosure with holes for MIDI out and a power switch. I still need advice on what would be the best step.
Recently, I went for a browse at the local landfill recycling centre and picked up a tattered Base MK-933 electronic keyboard for a few dollars, although it didn't have a MIDI output. It was fully working and very dirty, so I took it apart and cleaned it up. A few wires had come off the circuitry and now it won't work, but it's still a very nice keyboard in a lovely rosewood enclosure with a lid.
Here is what I would like to do with it... since the keyboard is already assembled and the case is sound, I would like to gut out the electronics used for the sound banks and other features, possibly even rebuild the case for just the keyboard to reduce the weight.
And here is my question... I know enough about woodworking to create a fine enclosure and I have the tools for that and electronics, but I don't know much about converting the keyboard to add a MIDI output to use it in my DAW or other standalone software. Is there a simple way of adding circuitry to the existing cables to achieve this? There are 61 velocity sensitive keys and no modulation wheel (which I am not concerned about for the moment).
EDIT: The electronics are fried and in a fit of frustration, I tore out the circuitry, took out the keyboard with its cabling and tossed out the box it was in (it was damaged anyway). I did a little research and discovered that I can use the keyboard PCB and keys to make a MIDI controller at a low cost. I am also currently making a schematic for a lightweight enclosure with holes for MIDI out and a power switch. I still need advice on what would be the best step.
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It could be done if you know how to program and build an interfaces for a computer.
You can by a midi controller keyboard that already works for cheap.
But, it does sound like a good candidate for the basis of a DIY analog synth though!!!
If you do some digging in the synth world you might find something.
You would be amazed at what you can find using Google!!
FWIW
jer
You can by a midi controller keyboard that already works for cheap.
But, it does sound like a good candidate for the basis of a DIY analog synth though!!!
If you do some digging in the synth world you might find something.
You would be amazed at what you can find using Google!!
FWIW
jer
I know how to build a computer interface, no problems there, but I don't understand why I need one. I planned to just link it to my music sequencing software and use the VST plugins.
Analog synth project? That sounds like a great idea. I did some net surfing for what I wanted and stumbled upon a great amount of synth building DIY projects and tutorials and I was pondering on whether I should attempt such a project. Thanks for your input, I will look around some more.
Analog synth project? That sounds like a great idea. I did some net surfing for what I wanted and stumbled upon a great amount of synth building DIY projects and tutorials and I was pondering on whether I should attempt such a project. Thanks for your input, I will look around some more.
The reason that you need an interface to a computer is so that the keystrokes of the keyboard can be converted in to numbers and transmitted serially as MIDI data to your MIDI devices.
Even the VST's use MIDI data to control them.
However there are some VST's that can take audio and covert it into MIDI data and perhaps something like that could be used.
For instance I was thinking about using a VST that detects frequency and volume level and run a signal from a simple signal generator through my volume pedal and as the level changes this can be converted to MIDI data to control a VST Wah-Wah or some other effect or by changing the frequency of the generator this can be some data for another parameter for some other kind of VST MIDI control.
So that one input to the sound card will be for my Guitar or whatever and the other input would routed to the VST audio to MIDI data converter.
My sound card has 4 inputs so this could actually give me six sets of MIDI control data using only three of the audio inputs to the sound card.
jer
Even the VST's use MIDI data to control them.
However there are some VST's that can take audio and covert it into MIDI data and perhaps something like that could be used.
For instance I was thinking about using a VST that detects frequency and volume level and run a signal from a simple signal generator through my volume pedal and as the level changes this can be converted to MIDI data to control a VST Wah-Wah or some other effect or by changing the frequency of the generator this can be some data for another parameter for some other kind of VST MIDI control.
So that one input to the sound card will be for my Guitar or whatever and the other input would routed to the VST audio to MIDI data converter.
My sound card has 4 inputs so this could actually give me six sets of MIDI control data using only three of the audio inputs to the sound card.
jer
Velocity is usually done by measuring the time it takes between two switches per key to close.
Each switch closes at a different interval of the keys travel and the time in between the closing of the first switch to the closing of the second switch determines the velocity of the keystroke.
Another reason why it would be easier to use a CPU.
Unless you built a timer for each individual key in which could be done as well and is how you would be able to have velocity and polyphony at the same time for each key.
CPU would be a lot easier and less circuitry involved but either way would work as programming is a pain in my book !! He,he,he
jer
Each switch closes at a different interval of the keys travel and the time in between the closing of the first switch to the closing of the second switch determines the velocity of the keystroke.
Another reason why it would be easier to use a CPU.
Unless you built a timer for each individual key in which could be done as well and is how you would be able to have velocity and polyphony at the same time for each key.
CPU would be a lot easier and less circuitry involved but either way would work as programming is a pain in my book !! He,he,he
jer
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Well, the end result for me would be to use this keyboard like my computer keyboard is used to play the notes in FL Studio (this is all I want to use as I'm not a professional performer, just an interested hobbyist composer). The computer keyboard also uses the same keys as some of the standalone applications that FL uses in its plugins, but I can only use 2 octaves and press no more than 3-4 keys at a time.
What you said makes sense to me, but in between my last post and this one, I spent every minute researching... obviously I'm after the quickest and easiest solution, none of which I am able to find without spending large amounts of money on brain boards. The analog synth idea is way over my head and I've not dealt with electronics for 20 years. You were right that MIDI keyboards are cheap and I'm opt to purchase one.
I really appreciate the things you've told me and I only wish that there may have been a small project for me to immerse myself into just for the fun of it.
What you said makes sense to me, but in between my last post and this one, I spent every minute researching... obviously I'm after the quickest and easiest solution, none of which I am able to find without spending large amounts of money on brain boards. The analog synth idea is way over my head and I've not dealt with electronics for 20 years. You were right that MIDI keyboards are cheap and I'm opt to purchase one.
I really appreciate the things you've told me and I only wish that there may have been a small project for me to immerse myself into just for the fun of it.
Yes,I agree it is quite an undertaking!!
Here is another idea lets say that you have two very old and slow computers lying around doing nothing,
You could wire the keyboard to the two computer keyboard switches for 4 octaves and the combine the midi outs of the two computers by tying the midi in and outs in series (daisy chained) and run that into your sequencer on one of the computers.
Just an idea I don't know if it would work but it is logical.
Using the idea I gave in the last post you could easily make a monotonic keyboard by feeding the proper note frequency through each key switch and mix them and then feed that into the audio to MIDI converter.
Doing this in a certain way of matrixing it is possible to get some kind of polyphony out of it.
This is the way the earlier analog synths did it.
It is funny just last week I had stumbled on the original Popular Electronics articles on how to do this and how to build a simple synth but I didn't save the link.
I used to have the original prints myself but they are long gone now.
There are lots of possibilities !!
If you just want to enter note data then a simple interface would do it ,But I am no programmer.
Hardware I can do, but not software, it is just not my bag.
Good Luck !!
jer
Here is another idea lets say that you have two very old and slow computers lying around doing nothing,
You could wire the keyboard to the two computer keyboard switches for 4 octaves and the combine the midi outs of the two computers by tying the midi in and outs in series (daisy chained) and run that into your sequencer on one of the computers.
Just an idea I don't know if it would work but it is logical.
Using the idea I gave in the last post you could easily make a monotonic keyboard by feeding the proper note frequency through each key switch and mix them and then feed that into the audio to MIDI converter.
Doing this in a certain way of matrixing it is possible to get some kind of polyphony out of it.
This is the way the earlier analog synths did it.
It is funny just last week I had stumbled on the original Popular Electronics articles on how to do this and how to build a simple synth but I didn't save the link.
I used to have the original prints myself but they are long gone now.
There are lots of possibilities !!
If you just want to enter note data then a simple interface would do it ,But I am no programmer.
Hardware I can do, but not software, it is just not my bag.
Good Luck !!
jer
I slept on the idea and I have another one... there are quite a few broken or non working MIDI keyboards online. Perhaps I could use the MIDI board from one of them. I know what I am suggesting seems futile for my needs and buying a cheap MIDI keyboard would be much more economically viable, but it's the hobbyist woodworker in me that can't shake the need to build something.
That is a possibility depending on what is wrong with them.
If you get one and the CPU is dead or something then your are back at square one.
You got me going now!!! He,he,he
I will do some searching and see what I can come up with.
When there is a will there is always a way !!!
jer
P.S. Check this out !!!
http://www.kinkennon.com/virtual_pipe_organ/virtual_pipe_organ.htm
a link from one of the pages,
http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/
I was going to suggest a PIC cpu of some sorts and this can be done very easily as they aren't too costly and are easy to use. Although I have not worked with one yet,I have seen them used for all sorts of stuff and I have been wanting to get one for some time now as some come with the BASIC programing system built into them!
All that is required to use and program them is a RS232 port or even a USB port!!!
This thing runs at 80Mhz !!!!
That is plenty fast enough and you should be able to implement velocity with no problem, and, aftertouch as well if your unit has the sensor for it.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9713?
I found the link in This thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/instruments-amps/212042-making-midi-keyboard.html#post3010787
If you get one and the CPU is dead or something then your are back at square one.
You got me going now!!! He,he,he
I will do some searching and see what I can come up with.
When there is a will there is always a way !!!
jer
P.S. Check this out !!!
http://www.kinkennon.com/virtual_pipe_organ/virtual_pipe_organ.htm
a link from one of the pages,
http://www.schmalzhaus.com/UBW32/
I was going to suggest a PIC cpu of some sorts and this can be done very easily as they aren't too costly and are easy to use. Although I have not worked with one yet,I have seen them used for all sorts of stuff and I have been wanting to get one for some time now as some come with the BASIC programing system built into them!
All that is required to use and program them is a RS232 port or even a USB port!!!
This thing runs at 80Mhz !!!!
That is plenty fast enough and you should be able to implement velocity with no problem, and, aftertouch as well if your unit has the sensor for it.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9713?
I found the link in This thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/instruments-amps/212042-making-midi-keyboard.html#post3010787
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Here is another one already done !!
MIDI CPU DIY MIDI Controller / MIDI Encoder / MIDI Brain – Highly Liquid Store
Here is the Manual,
http://highlyliquid.com/support/docs/pdf/MIDI-CPU-Hardware-Rev-K.pdf
Just Google "DIY midi keyboard" and you will find a ton of stuff !!!
One more,
http://picsynth.000space.com/midi.html
WoW, This one might be Perfect for your appilcation!!!
Cheers !!!
jer
MIDI CPU DIY MIDI Controller / MIDI Encoder / MIDI Brain – Highly Liquid Store
Here is the Manual,
http://highlyliquid.com/support/docs/pdf/MIDI-CPU-Hardware-Rev-K.pdf
Just Google "DIY midi keyboard" and you will find a ton of stuff !!!
One more,
http://picsynth.000space.com/midi.html
WoW, This one might be Perfect for your appilcation!!!
Cheers !!!
jer
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Wow, you've really gone to work on my request haven't you? You don't know how much I appreciate this. I've been to some of the links you've mentioned and the Highly Liquid MIDI CPU was one of the ideas that I was sure would be what I needed. If I knew what ready made CPU I need to set it up for USB and any other component, I would start right away. My electronics skills have dissipate somewhat and I may have to relearn.
The last link about building a MIDI keyboard was one I visited from the beginning of my research and was a little over my head at the time so I didn't read it thoroughly, but over the last 2 days, I began to understand more and this second visit was a little more easier to comprehend (I might have a memory like a siv, but I learn very quickly... perhaps I already know a lot and just needed memory jogging). It's still a little over my head as far as the electronics go and I will need to do some reading for a few weeks, but at least if I knew what to buy and how to implement everything, I can start my project soon.
Thanks geraldfryjr, you are a gentleman and legend.
The last link about building a MIDI keyboard was one I visited from the beginning of my research and was a little over my head at the time so I didn't read it thoroughly, but over the last 2 days, I began to understand more and this second visit was a little more easier to comprehend (I might have a memory like a siv, but I learn very quickly... perhaps I already know a lot and just needed memory jogging). It's still a little over my head as far as the electronics go and I will need to do some reading for a few weeks, but at least if I knew what to buy and how to implement everything, I can start my project soon.
Thanks geraldfryjr, you are a gentleman and legend.
No problem!!!
Thank you for the kind remarks.
From what I understand is that you hook them up to your computer via RS232/USB port and run a program that is a terminal emulator and program away.
The one is already done for you and all you have to do is hook it to your subject keyboard and use it.
The last one is even simpler yet with two chips and is more DIY and can be done on a breadboard.
But do use sockets for the chips.
I am not sure if he has the program published for self programming as I have not read the whole thing yet.
But $20 is reasonable to me and all you have to do is wire it up.
I read most of it and it is very simple and you just wire it like it is explained.
I think the Highly Liquid one would be a better choice as it has more features and is already done for you and all you have to do is hook it up and wire your keyboard switches to it with some ribbon cable.
Should you decide to follow through with this I can help you the best I can as this sort of stuff is old news for me and I do it all of the time. He,he,he,he
jer
P.S. The words "NO" and "CAN'T" are not in my vocabulary !!!
Thank you for the kind remarks.
From what I understand is that you hook them up to your computer via RS232/USB port and run a program that is a terminal emulator and program away.
The one is already done for you and all you have to do is hook it to your subject keyboard and use it.
The last one is even simpler yet with two chips and is more DIY and can be done on a breadboard.
But do use sockets for the chips.
I am not sure if he has the program published for self programming as I have not read the whole thing yet.
But $20 is reasonable to me and all you have to do is wire it up.
I read most of it and it is very simple and you just wire it like it is explained.
I think the Highly Liquid one would be a better choice as it has more features and is already done for you and all you have to do is hook it up and wire your keyboard switches to it with some ribbon cable.
Should you decide to follow through with this I can help you the best I can as this sort of stuff is old news for me and I do it all of the time. He,he,he,he
jer
P.S. The words "NO" and "CAN'T" are not in my vocabulary !!!
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Cool!!!
Let me know how it goes.
Their MIDI Decoder board look pretty neat as well!
Very Cool Stuff indeed!!
Meanwhile here is a link to a thread in their forum that maybe of interest to you where a user converted his old organ with their controller board,
Midi organ. - Highly Liquid Forum
jer
Let me know how it goes.
Their MIDI Decoder board look pretty neat as well!
Very Cool Stuff indeed!!
Meanwhile here is a link to a thread in their forum that maybe of interest to you where a user converted his old organ with their controller board,
Midi organ. - Highly Liquid Forum
jer
Mr Kinkennon is a participant in organforum.com. His project doesn't pick up velocity, but for a selfprogramming $29 board is fairly amazing. For velocity he stated he in the past he has used midiboutique.com products. They have a two contact velocity encoding keyboard. Make sure you understand whether your keyboard is matrix switching, or parallel 61 form A contacts, or what? Before you invest any time.
And if your going to do a lot of work on your surplus keyboard, precious metal contacts have more of a future life than conductive rubber ones. Pity you don't live in this hemisphere, fine hardwood organ cases with up to 11 rhodium contacts per key are going to the dump all the time.
The best midi intro was written by picothinker on the organforum organ building forum, the midi section. Just you have to set the default to display more than one day to see anything, the moderator likes to keep all that hidden for some reason.
And if your going to do a lot of work on your surplus keyboard, precious metal contacts have more of a future life than conductive rubber ones. Pity you don't live in this hemisphere, fine hardwood organ cases with up to 11 rhodium contacts per key are going to the dump all the time.
The best midi intro was written by picothinker on the organforum organ building forum, the midi section. Just you have to set the default to display more than one day to see anything, the moderator likes to keep all that hidden for some reason.
Man I sure would like to get my hands on one of those old old keyboards with 11 switches per key !!!
Here is another very informative link,
DIY MIDI controllers using PIC microcontrollers and Basic Stamps | Ross Bencina
Enjoy !!
jer
Here is another very informative link,
DIY MIDI controllers using PIC microcontrollers and Basic Stamps | Ross Bencina
Enjoy !!
jer
Most MIDI keyboards transmit and recieve MIDI data.
You can play the keys and the note, velocity, pitch bend, and other date will be sent through the MIDI cable (MIDI transmit) to another keyboard, sound module, or computer.
You can send data from a MIDI keyboard, or computer into a keyboard or sound module that receives that data, processes SOME or all of it and plays the sounds.
I bought a little microprocessor board about 10 years ago that goes inside an old Casio SK-1 sampling keyboard. It receives MIDI note information and plays the notes on the Casio. It does not respond to velocity, or other info since the Casio couldn't use it anyway.
There are several similar kits on the web. If analog synthesis is in your future, look at PAiA Corporation - Analog Synths, Theremins, Preamps, and More, these guys have been around for 40 years or so. I built one of their synthesizers in the early 70's. They have a MIDI to analog (control voltage and trigger) interface kit.
It sounds like you want a way to get music from a piano type keyboard into your computer. I looked at building one, but found it is far easier and cheaper to buy one. I got an M-audio Oxygen25. It has a 25 key music keyboard two wheels for pitch bend, 8 knobs, and a readout. These can be assigned to various functions in your DAW program. It can plug into the PC via USB so that no MIDI interface is needed in the PC. Building something with those capabilities would take time, and probably about $100, so I bought one.
I haven't used FL studio since it was called Fruit Loops, so I can't speak for the assignabilities, but In Sonar the knobs can operate nearly anything, and then can be reasigned to faders at mixdown time. There are dozens of these things out there with even more capability, but the O25 is under $100, and beyond my skill level. There is a really cool Roland / Cakewalk for about $300 with a larger keyboard, but I don't need (can't use) the extra capabilities since I too am a music tinkerer, not a pro.
You can also get an interface that mounts on a guitar and sends MIDI data. Good ones aren't cheap, but I got a used Roland on Ebay and it amuses me while annoying my neighbors!
M-Audio Oxygen 25 - USB MIDI Controller | Musician's Friend
Cakewalk A-300PRO USB/MIDI Keyboard Controller | Musician's Friend
You can play the keys and the note, velocity, pitch bend, and other date will be sent through the MIDI cable (MIDI transmit) to another keyboard, sound module, or computer.
You can send data from a MIDI keyboard, or computer into a keyboard or sound module that receives that data, processes SOME or all of it and plays the sounds.
I bought a little microprocessor board about 10 years ago that goes inside an old Casio SK-1 sampling keyboard. It receives MIDI note information and plays the notes on the Casio. It does not respond to velocity, or other info since the Casio couldn't use it anyway.
There are several similar kits on the web. If analog synthesis is in your future, look at PAiA Corporation - Analog Synths, Theremins, Preamps, and More, these guys have been around for 40 years or so. I built one of their synthesizers in the early 70's. They have a MIDI to analog (control voltage and trigger) interface kit.
It sounds like you want a way to get music from a piano type keyboard into your computer. I looked at building one, but found it is far easier and cheaper to buy one. I got an M-audio Oxygen25. It has a 25 key music keyboard two wheels for pitch bend, 8 knobs, and a readout. These can be assigned to various functions in your DAW program. It can plug into the PC via USB so that no MIDI interface is needed in the PC. Building something with those capabilities would take time, and probably about $100, so I bought one.
I haven't used FL studio since it was called Fruit Loops, so I can't speak for the assignabilities, but In Sonar the knobs can operate nearly anything, and then can be reasigned to faders at mixdown time. There are dozens of these things out there with even more capability, but the O25 is under $100, and beyond my skill level. There is a really cool Roland / Cakewalk for about $300 with a larger keyboard, but I don't need (can't use) the extra capabilities since I too am a music tinkerer, not a pro.
You can also get an interface that mounts on a guitar and sends MIDI data. Good ones aren't cheap, but I got a used Roland on Ebay and it amuses me while annoying my neighbors!
M-Audio Oxygen 25 - USB MIDI Controller | Musician's Friend
Cakewalk A-300PRO USB/MIDI Keyboard Controller | Musician's Friend
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