Hello every one, I've been lurking around here for a while now.
Gathering info about speakers, trying to see which and what gives the most flat response. I've noticed a lot of people around here, don't know a lot about FRFR guitar rigs. FRFR just means Full Range Flat Response.
A lot of guitar have moved to this setup, so a bunch of guitarist have been using PA speakers, and speaker impulses to get the tone they want.
I have a rig that I'm trying to run FRFR. I can't afford a mackie 1221, and plus, I love building things.
(My guitar is tuned in perfect fifths, with the lowest note being a F-0. so it plays the role of a bass also.)
So I was looking at ESLs for my speakers. so I thought about asking you guys what are your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions about this?
Gathering info about speakers, trying to see which and what gives the most flat response. I've noticed a lot of people around here, don't know a lot about FRFR guitar rigs. FRFR just means Full Range Flat Response.
A lot of guitar have moved to this setup, so a bunch of guitarist have been using PA speakers, and speaker impulses to get the tone they want.
I have a rig that I'm trying to run FRFR. I can't afford a mackie 1221, and plus, I love building things.
(My guitar is tuned in perfect fifths, with the lowest note being a F-0. so it plays the role of a bass also.)
So I was looking at ESLs for my speakers. so I thought about asking you guys what are your thoughts, ideas, and suggestions about this?
So you get something essentially flat from say 60Hz to 18kHz (usual for a 12"+comp. tweeter), and use that for guitar?
I'm assuming some kind of eq is being employed to get rid of the upper harmonics of the distortion (think it's the 7th that's dischordant).
Anyway. ESLs won't (I suspect) do what you want - certainly not for a gig.
While they sound nice enough for home hifi, they're a pig to drive (apparently dropping to <1ohm in the high frequencies), and have rather limited power handling, so you'd need several large panels for a gig situation - drum kits are incredibly loud.
Also, ESLs are dipole, so suffer loss in efficiency in the low frequencies.
IMO, not a good idea unless it can all be mic'd up, reducing the max.SPL needed.
So, how loud does it need to be?
Chris
I'm assuming some kind of eq is being employed to get rid of the upper harmonics of the distortion (think it's the 7th that's dischordant).
Anyway. ESLs won't (I suspect) do what you want - certainly not for a gig.
While they sound nice enough for home hifi, they're a pig to drive (apparently dropping to <1ohm in the high frequencies), and have rather limited power handling, so you'd need several large panels for a gig situation - drum kits are incredibly loud.
Also, ESLs are dipole, so suffer loss in efficiency in the low frequencies.
IMO, not a good idea unless it can all be mic'd up, reducing the max.SPL needed.
So, how loud does it need to be?
Chris
I think it's a really silly idea all round
The point of guitar amps is to give you the sound you want, you don't usually want them flat.
If you do?, then simply DI to the PA - job done.
I think it's a really silly idea all round
The point of guitar amps is to give you the sound you want, you don't usually want them flat.
If you do?, then simply DI to the PA - job done.
Or just pick up a few hifi speakers from a goodwill store. Picked up a couple older Technics speakers for $15, probably blow away a ESL in terms of loudness and portability never mind amp requirements.
I have not noticed guitar players trying to use flat speakers. Cleaner players have used JBL's or Electrovoice PA speakers if they were playing clean Country or Jazz but most still like the traditional guitar sounds which a lot comes from the speaker. But to each his own.
A full range system has merit for some players especially acoustic or rythym players. Plugging a guitar preamp into a typical HiFi system is usually a good way to blow the speaker.
I have plugged my guitar preamp into a Tubelab Simple P-P HiFi amp (2 X 15 watt using EL84's) and played it through my EZ-10 horns which have Audio Nirvana full range drivers. It sounds great and crystal clear, but I am afraid to crank it to full tilt nor do I know how well the drivers would hold up over time.
I have also plugged the guitar preamp into Petes red board (a tube amp with 125 WPC) and played it through a pair of Hawthorne Silver Iris 15 inch full range coaxial drivers. These speakers are actually custom made by Eminence and can eat all I throw at them. They are clear and LOUD too. The Hawthorne web site details using these drivers for guitar amp use.
I have plugged my guitar preamp into a Tubelab Simple P-P HiFi amp (2 X 15 watt using EL84's) and played it through my EZ-10 horns which have Audio Nirvana full range drivers. It sounds great and crystal clear, but I am afraid to crank it to full tilt nor do I know how well the drivers would hold up over time.
I have also plugged the guitar preamp into Petes red board (a tube amp with 125 WPC) and played it through a pair of Hawthorne Silver Iris 15 inch full range coaxial drivers. These speakers are actually custom made by Eminence and can eat all I throw at them. They are clear and LOUD too. The Hawthorne web site details using these drivers for guitar amp use.
I was not all that serious, more saying it was a step up from using ESLs. If you were to try it do the goodwill home ore car speaker thing first, actually car speakers may even be more rugged.
About 15 years ago I made several tube guitar amps using car speakers. A few were for my daughters teenage friends. One who played an Epiphone ES335 clone said it was the best amp he ever had. It used a pair of JBL 5 X 7 oval speakers I ripped out of my car before trading it in. The metal shredders did not like the clean sound though. Even with a few stomp boxes and plenty of power the speakers just don't scream.
Some car speakers like the Audiovox and Jensens with the blue foam surround will last about 5 minutes with a 15 watt tube amp regardless of their power rating. The 6 X 9's with a coated paper surround and a whizzer cone can be made to scream. Some 6 inch round speakers scream, some sound bad, and some just blow up.
All of this experience is about 15 years old though. I just started making guitar amps again after a long hiatus. I haven't blown a single speaker yet, but its only a matter of time!
Most car speakers (and amplifiers) have entirely imaginary power ratings - a real 15W quite probably exceeded their power ratings.
Yeah exactly thats pretty much it. the Speaker impulse/cab emulater takes care of that, then you use the EQ in the pre-amp to shape your tone.
Yeah I was hoping that wasn't the case. I wanted to use them at band practice, and for gigs, go through the PA and use it as a moniter.
I guess I need it to be around 90db? I think thats what most 50 watt guitar amps are pushing. since I play proggresive metal, with classical and jazz influances.
Here's a few of my favorite bands that run full FRFR rigs
Animals As Leaders
Animals As Leaders - "Odessa" (official stream) - YouTube
Periphery
Periphery - Letter Experiment - YouTube
Vildhjarta
Vildhjarta - All These Feelings - YouTube
Scale The Summit
Scale the Summit - The Levitated - YouTube
there are a few more I might post later.
Tubelab, I thought about using Car audio speakers. my brother gave me two 200 watt 4 ohm 10 inch speakers that I could use.
thanks for the info Printer2 I'll look into thoughs speakers.
If you are playing with a drummer you may need something a little louder than 90dB unless you have a monster amp. As an example, 97-102 dB/watt.
Legend Series | Eminence Speaker
Legend Series | Eminence Speaker
Most guitar amps use speakers that are near 100 dB one watt 1 meter in the upper mid range.
A 50 watt amp into a 100dB sensitive speaker can produce 117 dB, about what it takes to keep up with a loud snare drum.
Most decent floor monitors have FRFR (compared to most guitar speakers) and are in the 95-100 dB sensitivity range.
A good floor monitor will give you a close approximation of what the PA sound is like.
Since you are using a drop tuning, ideally you need the -3dB point below that frequency, probably around 70 Hz.
That requires a fairly large monitor to have high sensitivity down low.
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Alright, so I guess my best bet is to get a pa monitor 15 inch speaker, or some thing. instead of building some thing.
I still would like to experiment with a ESL though. may be some other time I guess haha.
12" guitar speakers can have (on axis, in the upper mid) a sensitivity of over 105dB.
To give you an idea, keeping up with our loud drummer took an amp capable of 111dB driven entirely clipping to be heard (guesstimate at 114dB).
I'd take a look at something like Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Usefully efficient, plenty of power handling, wide(ish) frequency range. Two of those in a box with 100w would be plenty loud for most situations.
Chris
To give you an idea, keeping up with our loud drummer took an amp capable of 111dB driven entirely clipping to be heard (guesstimate at 114dB).
I'd take a look at something like Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker
Usefully efficient, plenty of power handling, wide(ish) frequency range. Two of those in a box with 100w would be plenty loud for most situations.
Chris
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