Horns.
Altec VOTT or equivalent. Ask Cal Weldon, he knows about them.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Thanks Terry. These things I know less about than just about anything...What is it about them that would make them especially good for piano reproduction? Btw, I'm actually talking about using them with a digital piano keyboard, not recorded music. However, the same standards may apply anyway. These things just look like they would sound great. Are they known to be flat response or colored? It doesn't really matter to me as long as it sounds as close to an acoustic grand piano as possible. Probably a very tall order, but that's me...
This is kind of what I figured, but I wondered if there were any particular speakers that keyboardists flock to for the piano pieces. If a person is very particular about their sound, piano is one acoustic instrument with a very recognizable sound and probably the single most widely used keyboard sound. Everybody knows what a large grand piano should sound like and so you want to replicate that as well as possible. It sounds big, full and "real". There are a few really good sampled piano vsti's out there and they beg for speakers to match. I'm guessing it's not that easy to make a speaker that does that really well.
I've only just started to look into this, so I don't really know. I'll be visiting a few good local music stores too, but this is where the speaker experts are for sure. Realistically, I probably will end up with just what you said for budget reasons if nothing else, but I like to start at the top and then work down to meet my budget...
Well, it is hard to beat an esl or mag type planar driver when done right.
Parts express has some very good project speakers aswell.
There was one in particular that I was going to suggest but it is not on their website anymore as I think the woofer from dayton was discontinued.
Although I am not a box speaker type of person I was very impressed by the spec's of this one and it was featured in one of their flyers and I still have it some where.
It was finished in piano black lacquar.
I believe it was a three way system with a 10" woofer in a small volume box and the guy that designed it I think was a pianist and they were designed to be used as nearfield monitors and had an incredibly flat resopnse down to 30 hz I will look for it later and try to get it posted.
I have a friend (Mavric) that had built the tractix from PE is very happy with them aswell and has even used them side by side with his DIY esl's that he has documented the construction of, In these threads.
I am also impressed with the Zalph audio designs using the dayton aluminium cone drivers as he has measured them to have a very low THD for a cone type speaker and are very high quality drivers for the price even though the have gone up with the price of gas aswell.
There are quite a few very good designs on the PE website that even me, a diehard ESL fan, would not mind giving a second look.
Regards. jer
Parts express has some very good project speakers aswell.
There was one in particular that I was going to suggest but it is not on their website anymore as I think the woofer from dayton was discontinued.
Although I am not a box speaker type of person I was very impressed by the spec's of this one and it was featured in one of their flyers and I still have it some where.
It was finished in piano black lacquar.
I believe it was a three way system with a 10" woofer in a small volume box and the guy that designed it I think was a pianist and they were designed to be used as nearfield monitors and had an incredibly flat resopnse down to 30 hz I will look for it later and try to get it posted.
I have a friend (Mavric) that had built the tractix from PE is very happy with them aswell and has even used them side by side with his DIY esl's that he has documented the construction of, In these threads.
I am also impressed with the Zalph audio designs using the dayton aluminium cone drivers as he has measured them to have a very low THD for a cone type speaker and are very high quality drivers for the price even though the have gone up with the price of gas aswell.
There are quite a few very good designs on the PE website that even me, a diehard ESL fan, would not mind giving a second look.
Regards. jer
As great as or perhaps greater than speaker issues are microphone placement (where and how many) and the delivery system (16 bits isn't enough to capture/deliver the dynamic range of a concert grand, so piano is always limited and compressed if separately mic'ed). Once past those problems all the old familiar speaker issues apply . . . smooth and extended (if you can hear it) frequency response, and particularly uniform dispersion and a flat power response (which favors omni and dipoles, since "baffle step" (the change in radiation pattern) is often significantly more audible when playing solo piano recordings).
If you were just talking "stage piano" I'd agree about horns/pa speakers . . . that's what you hear them through in performance. For reproducing a concert grand not so much . . . broad and uniform dispersion seems to carry the day . . .
If you were just talking "stage piano" I'd agree about horns/pa speakers . . . that's what you hear them through in performance. For reproducing a concert grand not so much . . . broad and uniform dispersion seems to carry the day . . .
If you want too try something that is not to complicated and get great sound, take a look at this thread,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/172761-planar-speaker-first-try-3.html#post2501074
He also has a youtube of them in action here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/172761-planar-speaker-first-try-3.html#post2491054
The very first time I heard a realistic sounding piano was on a set of cravers AMAZING RIBBON speakers. jer
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/172761-planar-speaker-first-try-3.html#post2501074
He also has a youtube of them in action here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/172761-planar-speaker-first-try-3.html#post2491054
The very first time I heard a realistic sounding piano was on a set of cravers AMAZING RIBBON speakers. jer
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I kind of wonder about 40 hz bass on planar speakers. I check out speakers with piano sources, specifically Serkin "Three Beethoven Sonatas" and a low brow Peter Nero album, "Young and Warm and Wonderful" that has top octave Steinway grand solo on a cut. Also better mikes than the Serkin (1974 vs 1958). Currently I'm using Peavey SP2-XT speakers at $300 ea used, after rejecting the SP5's at the store because the bass was wimpy. These are a horn plus a 15" woofer. It is a copy of the classic Altec-Lansing design, which is never for sale here in the middle. JBL is supposed to be the next most original, but they don't sell here either, nor do they have much of a spec brochure. You might audition JBL on the coast. Mackie and Yamaha also make copies. You will find Peavey in musician stores, not hi-fi boutiques, and take your own CD, they won't have a good one. Lot of noise about PA sound on this board, look at the distortion levels of the SP2 spec at 1 W (which fills my living room except for hard sforzando hits) and 10W and 100W PA levels. Before my SP2's I owned Peavey T300 high frequency projectors, which don't have enough bass. I'm running the SP2's on stands behind and above my Steinway at the end of a 14Wx12HX25L living/dining room, which is the classic Wein concert hall shape. Yes, you can build your own speakers, but this requires a lot of anechoic testing with a great mike to get just right. Neumann and Schope mikes are about $3000 each. I'm powering with a 50 year old tube Dynakit ST70 this week, but also use CS800s PA amp and transistor dynakit ST120 amp with djoffe bias mod. the transistor amps sound better but have more parts and require debug right now.
If you're putting on stage shows and like portability, try a Peavey KB300 with built in amp.
If you're putting on stage shows and like portability, try a Peavey KB300 with built in amp.
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I am a very big fan of the SP2's and have used them quite a bit as top end units.
My first experience with them was from a friend that plays drums and I was completely blown away in how much sound they produced and cleanly from his Alesis D4 drum module.
Please forgive me as it didn't dawn on me that we where talking about PA use as per post in #1
"I'm talking for home environment, not large venue. Portability is not important."
jer
My first experience with them was from a friend that plays drums and I was completely blown away in how much sound they produced and cleanly from his Alesis D4 drum module.
Please forgive me as it didn't dawn on me that we where talking about PA use as per post in #1
"I'm talking for home environment, not large venue. Portability is not important."
jer
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Wow, a lot of very interesting ideas here. I need to digest before commenting as this is unfamiliar territory for me. However, a few questions:
Cal, can you steer me to more VOTT information. I'm clueless. There are so many variations, I'm confused.
Jer, I'm going to look into planars anyway since I know nothing about it.
Cal, can you steer me to more VOTT information. I'm clueless. There are so many variations, I'm confused.
Indiana, what Altec design are these patterned after? Sounds like you have a lot of experience looking for piano reproduction sound in-home. And thanks for the album referrals.
Jer, I'm going to look into planars anyway since I know nothing about it.
Sorry about that, it didn't occur to me we were talking about home use - in which case decent quality HiFi speakers and amps are all that's required.
One advantage that horns have over many other types of speakers is dynamic range and lack of distortion. I've built enough regular speakers to know that most of them won't deliver the effortless power that a horn (I've built some of those as well) is able to. For piano music, I would think that it would be a major concideration.
I'll see if I can alert Cal.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I'll see if I can alert Cal.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Just my 2p (that's not worth as much any more due to inflation, amongst other things):
- two seperate loudspeakers will never give the same sound as a single loudspeaker, when a single instrument is playing, and is panned to the centre: despite anything we might do, the sound is still coming from two seperate sources, and will still sound as such.
- a single, mono speaker would more accurately reproduce a single piano much more accurately than two speakers effectively being used in mono, which will interact with each other, giving various effects on the sound, which, while might be pleasing, aren't strictly accurate to the instrument.
My design would be omni-directional (as pianos tend to be), with a decent LF driver or two to handle the very low notes.
Chris
- two seperate loudspeakers will never give the same sound as a single loudspeaker, when a single instrument is playing, and is panned to the centre: despite anything we might do, the sound is still coming from two seperate sources, and will still sound as such.
- a single, mono speaker would more accurately reproduce a single piano much more accurately than two speakers effectively being used in mono, which will interact with each other, giving various effects on the sound, which, while might be pleasing, aren't strictly accurate to the instrument.
My design would be omni-directional (as pianos tend to be), with a decent LF driver or two to handle the very low notes.
Chris
This is a good point. I just started to think about this aspect as well. An omni speaker certainly would be ideal, but in my case probably not a deal-breaker, as the speaker would be at the end of the room anyway. As for stereo, yes, the piano is a mono instrument, but from the perspective of the player, you have the lower strings left of you and high strings to the right, so there really is a stereo effect to be considered. For a listener across the room, probably not noticeable. However, although a single speaker would cost half as much (a good thing), a stereo application is probably what I'll end up with, especially if I use them for recorded music also. Maybe if the two speakers were placed close together it would sound more natural too for a solo instrument.
Having said that, do you have a particular omni system in mind???
I have to say I am with you on that one as much as I like stereo.
As I have stated before, I have yet to hook my little diyesl's in stereo as I am just floored with the way only one sounds right now and have been listening to it that way for a year now.
But that will change soon when I finish setting up my equipment and room this summer.
Cherrs ! jer
P.S No problem, Nigel, as I caught myself starting to think the same way(ha,ha,ha)!
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I haven't read every post in this the thread so I may be repeating something already posted. But as I understand it the piano has a high proportion of energy in the fundamental as opposed to the harmonics. (This is the opposite of the violin.) I can remember reading somewhere that because of this bass is v.important for piano.
Jer, what are you using the single speaker for right now? I'm starting to think your way too, at least for keyboard playing, because as for as I know, all the VSTi's are mono instruments anyway. It certainly would be worth trying first, as you apparently have, and cheaper. If I want to dedicate a pair of speakers for recorded stereo piano pieces, or set a pair up close together, I could always add another one. So tell me a little about your esl planars. In fact I may as well ask, what the heck is a planar, anyway and why would it make a good piano speaker?
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