hey
anyone else into that never ending fine tuning
maybe its because Im also into building instruments
well, it is my disorder, to tune and tune and tune
I cant help it
I simply have to adjust them screws
hmm, maybe because I was a sailing from early childhood
adjusting sails, rudder, and all that other stuff
whenever I see a screw, I simply has to turn it
but my bassguitar, it really changes, a lot
playability, voice, everything
its like night and day
get it right, and its soo easy to play
sheer joy
anyone else into that ?
anyone else into that never ending fine tuning
maybe its because Im also into building instruments
well, it is my disorder, to tune and tune and tune
I cant help it
I simply have to adjust them screws
hmm, maybe because I was a sailing from early childhood
adjusting sails, rudder, and all that other stuff
whenever I see a screw, I simply has to turn it
but my bassguitar, it really changes, a lot
playability, voice, everything
its like night and day
get it right, and its soo easy to play
sheer joy
anyone else into that ?
Most of my guitars stay in tune OK, but not my favourite, a short scale Suzuki acoustic 'parlour' guitar, ~ 35 years old. The $%#@ B string won't stay intonate properly, no matter what I do... I've cut a new saddle; no joy. My next move is to try a heavier gauge string...
Actually, I have a short scale bass I made out of an old Strat copy, the low E is having probs intonating too, but I'm pretty sure that's because I haven't got the bridge set up right yet.... been working on that for about 5 years so far....
Actually, I have a short scale bass I made out of an old Strat copy, the low E is having probs intonating too, but I'm pretty sure that's because I haven't got the bridge set up right yet.... been working on that for about 5 years so far....
Tinitus, 'fintune the scale size' in English it's called 'setting the intonation'. In theory, you only need to do it once, unless you change your string gauges.. but in practise....??? maybe it depends on the temperature/humidity stabilty of the neck?
One of my pet hates - those grub screws which set the bridge height - half of them are too long and stick up waiting to take flesh off your hand... you have to try to cut them in half without stuffing up the thread...
re: 'I use a rack tuner' - It probably the easiest and often most practical way, but I'm a tighta$$ Luddite, still use my ears...
One of my pet hates - those grub screws which set the bridge height - half of them are too long and stick up waiting to take flesh off your hand... you have to try to cut them in half without stuffing up the thread...
re: 'I use a rack tuner' - It probably the easiest and often most practical way, but I'm a tighta$$ Luddite, still use my ears...
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that should cover it all
well, yeah, having all frets in perfect tune also gives optimal 'intonation', as a result
the really surpricing thing is that its a 150 dollar 29" kid's bass
one reason I say this is, I think many people may have trouble because of a poorly adjusted bridge
Ah, there are a few tricks to this. Sometimes a bit of graphite (pencil lead) in the grooves on the nut (plastic bit at the end of the fingerboard) can help, sometimes a new nut is required if the existing one is pocketed.
If it's an electric, adjust the bridge adjuster until the 12th. harmonic and the fretted note at the 12th. are the same.
The other main thing is to treat 'em rough. Grab aholt of the string in the playing area near the end of the fingerboard and pull it away from the face hard, until it's nigh to breaking, then pull it left and right vigorously and quickly several times. Tune up to pitch and repeat the process until you get no change.
My violin teacher taught me this nearly 50 years ago. She used to terrify me pulling the strings around violently while I had the violin up under my chin, I kept expecting the string to break and take out my eye. Never did though.
w
If it's an electric, adjust the bridge adjuster until the 12th. harmonic and the fretted note at the 12th. are the same.
The other main thing is to treat 'em rough. Grab aholt of the string in the playing area near the end of the fingerboard and pull it away from the face hard, until it's nigh to breaking, then pull it left and right vigorously and quickly several times. Tune up to pitch and repeat the process until you get no change.
My violin teacher taught me this nearly 50 years ago. She used to terrify me pulling the strings around violently while I had the violin up under my chin, I kept expecting the string to break and take out my eye. Never did though.
w
cant trust them electronic tuners 100%, but nice to have, still
hmm, first step to find the 'intonation setting' seems to learn how the bridge works
by that I mean which effect it has when adjust one way, or the other
to me the key word is 'detuning'
final adjustments were exstremely small
maybe like 3/10 mill
I have almost run out of threading
so my bridge is probably wrongly placed
should have been closer to fretboard
I suppose each instrument will be different
One has to pay attention to proper teminology:
What the OP meant was SET-UP of the instrument. i.e. things like action, relief etc. Tuning is also a part of it of course. Relief and action should only be set-up with a well-tuned instrument. If I fiddle around with trussrod and bridge I always tune my basses with a tuner beforehand and afterwads.
The reason for this is simple: Tuning has an influence on the setup (via string-tension). If you are setting up an instrument that plays fine at a tuning that is lower or higer than "official" you will end up with a not-so-perfetly set up instrument as soon as you play with others because yu might be forced to retune.
I usually leave the tuner in the gig-bag when I tune my instruments for playing. Knowing wow to tune an instrument without electronic tuner is basic know how (and therefor a must) IMO.
Regards
Charles
What the OP meant was SET-UP of the instrument. i.e. things like action, relief etc. Tuning is also a part of it of course. Relief and action should only be set-up with a well-tuned instrument. If I fiddle around with trussrod and bridge I always tune my basses with a tuner beforehand and afterwads.
The reason for this is simple: Tuning has an influence on the setup (via string-tension). If you are setting up an instrument that plays fine at a tuning that is lower or higer than "official" you will end up with a not-so-perfetly set up instrument as soon as you play with others because yu might be forced to retune.
I usually leave the tuner in the gig-bag when I tune my instruments for playing. Knowing wow to tune an instrument without electronic tuner is basic know how (and therefor a must) IMO.
Regards
Charles
I had a beast of a time getting my intonations and Floyd Rose tremolo level all set.
But I learned a lot from the struggle.
Was using the lower 6 of a 7 string set AEADGB 75554(counting half steps between).
But no 7 string set proved heavy enough not to rattle at Drop A. I give up on 7 string
and now borrow .056 from a bass set. Or maybe its .065? Whatever, its the second
skinniest, or "D" bass string. Yeah, that one...
Strangely, the Floyd has a huge range of intonation possibilities. I discovered an
extra set of tapped holes hidden behind the ones we can usually see. You can
slide that low A string's saddle way back and still be able to bolt it down...
Anyways, I find the secret to slide a plastic floppy disk under the Floyd to hold
it level, and crank down the springs in back till it is pinned down and can't move.
Then setup all tunings and intonations while string interaction is not an issue.
Slowly loosen spring until the floppy slides out without changing the tuning of
the middle A. After that, its merely the fine adjusts...
Didn't have to do jack with the neck when I put on the thicker strings. Its a
Kramer, guess they are noteworthy for having crazy strong neck somehow?
Its wood for sure, not one of them rare aluminum ones...
But I learned a lot from the struggle.
Was using the lower 6 of a 7 string set AEADGB 75554(counting half steps between).
But no 7 string set proved heavy enough not to rattle at Drop A. I give up on 7 string
and now borrow .056 from a bass set. Or maybe its .065? Whatever, its the second
skinniest, or "D" bass string. Yeah, that one...
Strangely, the Floyd has a huge range of intonation possibilities. I discovered an
extra set of tapped holes hidden behind the ones we can usually see. You can
slide that low A string's saddle way back and still be able to bolt it down...
Anyways, I find the secret to slide a plastic floppy disk under the Floyd to hold
it level, and crank down the springs in back till it is pinned down and can't move.
Then setup all tunings and intonations while string interaction is not an issue.
Slowly loosen spring until the floppy slides out without changing the tuning of
the middle A. After that, its merely the fine adjusts...
Didn't have to do jack with the neck when I put on the thicker strings. Its a
Kramer, guess they are noteworthy for having crazy strong neck somehow?
Its wood for sure, not one of them rare aluminum ones...
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Nigel, how did she learn such a great skill? (well, I assume it can be taught...)
I probably rely too much on my electric tuner, having played for well over a year now I feel I should be able to do it by ear. Any hints/tips would be much appreciated.
Chris
I assume that you assume she is doing it by ears only ?
Well - you can do this of course but you need very accurate hearing. Wnen I tune my basses I do this also as a first step simply for the purpose of training the ears. But then I do still fine-tune using the classical methods like fretting a forth* and plucking the fretted string plus the next higher one (i.e. pitch-wise, not geometrically !) at once (and for the B - string of a guitar it is of course a semitone less). You can use the beat to fine tune. A prerequisite for this procedure is that your instrument is set up properly (i.e. the intonation).
The other method is to use harmonics and the beating between them, although not everyone likes this method because it tunes in perfect fourths which is a little off from the fourths of the well tempered scale. The advantag is that it can still be more accurate then the fretting method if you instrument is set up badly or frettless.
Regards
Charles
Well - you can do this of course but you need very accurate hearing. Wnen I tune my basses I do this also as a first step simply for the purpose of training the ears. But then I do still fine-tune using the classical methods like fretting a forth* and plucking the fretted string plus the next higher one (i.e. pitch-wise, not geometrically !) at once (and for the B - string of a guitar it is of course a semitone less). You can use the beat to fine tune. A prerequisite for this procedure is that your instrument is set up properly (i.e. the intonation).
The other method is to use harmonics and the beating between them, although not everyone likes this method because it tunes in perfect fourths which is a little off from the fourths of the well tempered scale. The advantag is that it can still be more accurate then the fretting method if you instrument is set up badly or frettless.
Regards
Charles
Yeah, I use the 5th frets (except 4th to get from G to B), but even getting those completely in line isn't always easy. For strings of the same type (ie, coiled), it's not too difficult, but the actual tone of the different types of string (coiled vs plated?) makes tuning right though more difficult.
Getting the low E to be E by ear isn't easy, but being able to do all the strings individually without comparing them to each other would be my final goal in this particular matter, which is why I asked for some pointers.
Chris
Getting the low E to be E by ear isn't easy, but being able to do all the strings individually without comparing them to each other would be my final goal in this particular matter, which is why I asked for some pointers.
Chris
Guitars can be a bit of a pain, especially when the strings get a bit worn, you may not always have a spare set, consequently tuning may be a bit of a compromise.
In the even-tempered scale, fifths are contracted, fourths are expanded and octaves are perfect.
What this means is that when you tune the 5th string to the 6th (by ear, without fretting), it should be slightly sharp of a perfect fourth. A perfect fourth is when you play both strings together, you don't heat any beats.
It's normal to tune sharp, and then relax the string down to the correct pitch. This gives a more stable condition less likely to alter during playing. You can often reduce the pitch of a string a little by stretching it, as I described earlier. To achieve the 'slightly sharp' effect, tune the string until it is definitely sharp (fast beats) and then relax it until the beats are at a rate of about 1 per second.
I normally tune a guitar by a combination of tests. I will fret a string at the 5th and tune the next string up to the fretted note. I also check that the lower string and the octave above on the 7th fret of the next string are good (no beats). Of course it's slightly different going from 3rd to 2nd to 1st. When tuning using the octaves, it's easy to tell if the upper (fretted) note is flat as you can bend it up to pitch using the fretting finger.
Then I check that the octaves of the open strings are good, that's the 6th open, the 4th at the 2nd fret, and the 1st open. Then I check that the C's (octaves) are in tune at the 3rd of the 5th and the 1st of the 2nd. I check the G's, D's and A's. Then I play a series of barres using the 'E' shape, F, G, A, B & C. I may tweak the settings slightly depending on how these come out, as I said, sometimes a compromise is required. I don't play many flat keys.
Another check with a recalcitrant guitar is that harmonic at the 7th is the same pitch as the harmonic at the 5th on the string below. In the case of the top strings, the harmonic at the 7th of the 1st is the same as the harmonic at the 5th of the 2nd is the same as the harmonic at the 4th of the 3rd.
A good place to to look to get some understanding of tuning and the even tempered scale is:- TUNING YOUR CELTIC HARP WITHOUT AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE.
In the even-tempered scale, fifths are contracted, fourths are expanded and octaves are perfect.
What this means is that when you tune the 5th string to the 6th (by ear, without fretting), it should be slightly sharp of a perfect fourth. A perfect fourth is when you play both strings together, you don't heat any beats.
It's normal to tune sharp, and then relax the string down to the correct pitch. This gives a more stable condition less likely to alter during playing. You can often reduce the pitch of a string a little by stretching it, as I described earlier. To achieve the 'slightly sharp' effect, tune the string until it is definitely sharp (fast beats) and then relax it until the beats are at a rate of about 1 per second.
I normally tune a guitar by a combination of tests. I will fret a string at the 5th and tune the next string up to the fretted note. I also check that the lower string and the octave above on the 7th fret of the next string are good (no beats). Of course it's slightly different going from 3rd to 2nd to 1st. When tuning using the octaves, it's easy to tell if the upper (fretted) note is flat as you can bend it up to pitch using the fretting finger.
Then I check that the octaves of the open strings are good, that's the 6th open, the 4th at the 2nd fret, and the 1st open. Then I check that the C's (octaves) are in tune at the 3rd of the 5th and the 1st of the 2nd. I check the G's, D's and A's. Then I play a series of barres using the 'E' shape, F, G, A, B & C. I may tweak the settings slightly depending on how these come out, as I said, sometimes a compromise is required. I don't play many flat keys.
Another check with a recalcitrant guitar is that harmonic at the 7th is the same pitch as the harmonic at the 5th on the string below. In the case of the top strings, the harmonic at the 7th of the 1st is the same as the harmonic at the 5th of the 2nd is the same as the harmonic at the 4th of the 3rd.
A good place to to look to get some understanding of tuning and the even tempered scale is:- TUNING YOUR CELTIC HARP WITHOUT AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE.
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I think it will only be possible if your 'set-up' is done properly
regarding the set-up tuning in particular, I do it mostly on upper frets, from 10th and up
right up to the last fret, which is 20th on my short scale bass
basicly its probably professional luthier's work
its complicated for sure
but hey, what are we here fore if not to learn
a tuning tip ?
well, when I tune, I only do it very gently
only touch them tuner machines very very lightly
mostly almost like nothing at all
if I do it rough, like turning a lot back and forth, the whole instruments get screwed up
mostly it has just loosened a bit, so I only need to give it just a tiny little touch
you may actually notice that the tuner machine feels just slightly loose
and all you may need is to turn it just enough to feel tight again
maybe it sounds crazy, but that's how it works for me
once you have found a good 'playable' set-up, touch it as little as possible
oh, yeah, about the set-up thing
when one note sounds right, try the one next to it
its them mellow ones that are tricky, and important
though I'm not sure about it, I have a suspicion that some professional rock guitarist's use i-tune, but I dont know
I've no idea
She had piano lessons from a young age, and when she was about 12 years old a lad at school (Charlie) asked her to play bass in a band he was trying to form.
At the time he didn't even have a guitar, and before he got one, she had a bass, learned to play it, had done a gig and a recording session
The 'band' never materialised, the other members never turned up, but Charlie had a guitar for Christmas, and they have done many gigs together, as parts of various bands, and as a duo. They also teach music and performance skills at a local school project - including helping to write (from scratch) and perform a complete musical in a single week! (this summer will be their third or fourth musical).
These "beats" - I've heard them, but never noted their significance. Turns out they're very important... Thanks for pointing those out
I set up my guitar using an electronic chromatic tuner. I set the action to how I like it, tuned the open strings then played around until the 5th frets and octaves were also in tune. They're now very close, but changing the set-up to get one in tune means the other goes a little more out, so I've decided it's close enough.
Nigel, that's certainly an impressive resumé. I'm also in a band, with another guitarist, drummer, singer and no bassist. My last amp died trying to fill in the bottom end of a song, but that's beside the point.
Thanks everyone for the advice, I'm going to try to make my drop-C tuned guitar tuned to E standard again, see how that goes..
Chris
Edit - success! Finding the low E was the most difficult part, after that it was very easy. Thank you everyone, it's much appreciated.
I set up my guitar using an electronic chromatic tuner. I set the action to how I like it, tuned the open strings then played around until the 5th frets and octaves were also in tune. They're now very close, but changing the set-up to get one in tune means the other goes a little more out, so I've decided it's close enough.
Nigel, that's certainly an impressive resumé. I'm also in a band, with another guitarist, drummer, singer and no bassist. My last amp died trying to fill in the bottom end of a song, but that's beside the point.
Thanks everyone for the advice, I'm going to try to make my drop-C tuned guitar tuned to E standard again, see how that goes..
Chris
Edit - success! Finding the low E was the most difficult part, after that it was very easy. Thank you everyone, it's much appreciated.
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